»

[Meiko]

What do you guys think of people who steal somebody else's work, ideas and efforts? Because I have a problem, with a friend of mine. That is a very good person I think, but can't resist staling from people. Opinions, ideas, etc. It bothers me, but it can't be helped. I don't know what to do in these cases, because when you told her, she can't understand. She doesn't understand it's wrong. Seems a normal thing to do, and very natural.

And there are people who don't do this in an innocent way. They steal other people's efforts, creative work and so on, to appear in a better light, and to not waste their personal time and energy. I can't stand it, but what do to? When it happens to you, how do you react?

[Redpyramidhead]

Could you give a good example of a time she has done that? Then I can tell you what I think about what she's doing.

In general, stealing peoples' ideas in order to make it look like it was your own hard work, time, and effort put into it is an extremely low thing to do in my opinion. There is absolutely NO class in that. The person who put in the time, work, effort, and personal genius into something should always get their due credit.

There is some gray area on this subject, I suppose, but I can't really get into it yet based on what you have told me.

Knowledge should be shared and not claimed to be owned by any one person in most cases, imo, but ideas and creations based on that knowledge is a touchy subject.

Innovation versus invention is another thing, too.

Interesting topic, Meiko. I am sure many people have strong feelings on this sort of thing.

_RED_ stuff

[merylsilverburg]

This is a really great topic, Meiko, I'm really glad you brought it up.

As Red said, do you think you could provide an example or tell us what your friend did? It's not that we don't believe you, but the whole topic of "stealing" can be debated greatly and I think it could widen our perspectives if we knew what happened.

As for my thoughts in general: I absolutely hate it when someone steals another's work and effort and call it their own. Like Red, there is no class in it whatsoever. Yet, I can't say that I'm completely against it because something like this can have 2 sides to it and here's an example why: (just an example)

I was browsing a site of amateur manga (comics) and I came across this one story where the artist completely copied the art style of Sailormoon. Now, people have argued with me, saying the girl was doing doujinshi but it's not. Doujinshi is when you use characters from a professional series and put them into your own story...like "Sailormoon Goes to Hawaii!" would be one. However, this girl was simply copying the art style but using her own created characters/personalities. Yet, I read comments and praises, such as "Wow, you're sooo good!" or "OMG, your style is great, you should go pro!" to which this girl replies "Thanks everyone, I worked so hard to create my own style!"

Many people say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." So, in the case mentioned above, would that be considered "stealing" or "imitation"? And can this be used as an excuse to copy another's work? She was taking someone else's style and yet, no one else could see it. They didn't bother saying "Umm...that looks an awful lot like "Sailormoon."'

Other people can also argue that, if they do "see" it, the girl was just using the style as "inspiration" and she'll probably develop her own style as years go by. Sure, that could happen because in my case, I've done it. I'm inspired by certain styles I see...so I imitate them at first but then I try my hardest to develop that into something of my own (which, ironically, I usually end up getting criticized for my lack of originality. ). But again, the development of original style might not happen because I've seen a lot of stuff where the art style is imitated and these people will continue to draw like this...yet, these people are praised to no end about how "original" they are.

Which brings me to the next point: originality. Nothing is truly original in this world anymore. Everything, whether it'd be art, music, stories, they're all inspired by something one way or another. So, would the girl be considered "unoriginal" for "stealing"/"imitating" from the original artist if the original artist "stole"/"imitated" her style from another person?

For these reasons, this is why I cannot say that I don't understand. Many people are "imitating" another's work and are either a) becoming successful or b) getting many praises and being called "original." I might consider it "stealing" but to others, it might not. It's a sort of debate that can be argued to no end, I feel.

I'm sorry if I confused anyone...if someone doesn't understand something, I'll try to explain it more clearly.

[Meiko]

Sorry for not explaining! But thanks for posting, I found your comments interesting! Especially meryl, I think you are right about many things, but I'm not sure in many cases it's so easy to know if the person is stealing another person's style intentionally or not. Some people like a mangaka or more mangakas, and are very used to the style of the artists they like, they maybe tried to copy at the beginning, then they try to develop a personal style. It's not that they are imitating and they are aware of it. They end copying because the influence is very strong and they had no occasions to try to look carefully at other styles and work on them. I don't draw much, but when I do, since I'm not very good, I try to look at what others do, to have an idea of the proportions and so on. It could end the final work looks a bit like the ones I've been looking at. I could be wrong, I don't know if it works like this for anybody.

Well... this friend of mine, who I am going to call A. in the rest of the post, is a very good person in general, as I said. She's very nice and fun. She's also a clever person from many points of view. The problem is A. seems to be unable to think with her own head or work on a personal project. For example, if she's going out with me, she becomes very interested in everything I like, she starts buying the music I like, she starts watching the movies I love the most. She starts acting as if those were her interests, not mine, she even buys things I'd like to buy, but I can't, and talks about the recent album I couldn't purchase. It makes me very mad. One day A. starts going out with other friends, and she does the same with them. As all the things she was liking before, just because I liked them, never existed for her. New music, new movies, new anything. She's like a completely different person. She also dresses in a different way.

A couple of years ago we decided to have a party for Halloween and decided to list all costumes people were going to wear, trying to avoid to have too many persons with the same costume. A. reads the list and says her costume is going to be x. Then at the party she has another costume, that was already taken, but since her costume is made by professional tailor, looks way better than the one of the other person, who simply got it from a local store. It was not a big deal, really, having two persons wearing the same kind of costume. It's the principle that pissed me off, that she had to steal the idea, just because she couldn't decide with her own head, and made the other girl feel bad because her costume wasn't as good as hers.

The same goes for anything A. has to do on her own. She is supposed to do it on her own, but in fact she copies from somebody else. At school we were often given some form of creative project, like writing, to do. She reads what other write, or asks others about what they are going to write. She says she's curious, nothing more. Then she steals the ideas she likes more. Since she's good at school and she studies a lot, her stuff is often better than the stuff that inspired her. Sometimes a person that is more creative ended with worse results just because she knows how to make things look better, because she's good at writing or she's a very diligent student and knows what teachers will enjoy more reading. It's not her creation, it's somebody else's but it looks like it's the other person who copied from her. Sometimes she even copied from the internet.

She doesn't understand it's wrong. She says: "I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just looking for inspiration" or "If it's not copyrighted, it means it's public domain" or "Nobody invents anything. All the things you like are copied from another source too. That is not copying, it's reinventing" or "What's wrong if I like the same things you like? Is the album or the movie x your exclusive property? No, it isn't, you're only jealous that somebody else likes it as much as you do, if not more".

I don't know what to do when a person is like that

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Meiko

Sorry for not explaining! But thanks for posting, I found your comments interesting! Especially meryl, I think you are right about many things, but I'm not sure in many cases it's so easy to know if the person is stealing another person's style intentionally or not. Some people like a mangaka or more mangakas, and are very used to the style of the artists they like, they maybe tried to copy at the beginning, then they try to develop a personal style. It's not that they are imitating and they are aware of it. They end copying because the influence is very strong and they had no occasions to try to look carefully at other styles and work on them. I don't draw much, but when I do, since I'm not very good, I try to look at what others do, to have an idea of the proportions and so on. It could end the final work looks a bit like the ones I've been looking at. I could be wrong, I don't know if it works like this for anybody.

What you said may be true, perhaps it’s simply the influence and that’s what they end up doing and it can’t be helped. But, from my perspective, there seems to be a lot of amateurs or amateurs-turned-professionals out there who claim to have developed their own sense of style, but when I take a look at their stuff, I usually get a huge glimpse of either: DBZ, Sailormoon, CLAMP. I’m not saying everyone, but the ones I’ve come across. Perhaps the example I used in my previous post was not such a good example to use, hehe. I couldn’t think of another general subject that relates to your topic so I used the art style thing because this is an occurring annoyance for me, so sorry about that.

Well, I read your examples of your friend A. and it seems to me there are several reasons for her behavior. Her problem could range from simple to complex. In the simple form, she could either be very lazy, extremely unimaginative, or careless. In the complex form, it’s probably all mental (as in psychologically, not that she’s crazy). And there are probably more reasons too.

From what you wrote, I can’t help but feel her problem is one part psychological and one part laziness (more of this later) and her stealing other’s works is just a mask to hide one a potential underlying reasons: identity issue. From what you said, she changes identities on the fly...when she’s with you, she acts a certain way and likes the things you like. When she’s with others, it’s another identity. I don’t know how old she is but identity problems usually occur in adolescent stages but it can carry on through adulthood. They might be trying to find themselves and establish a place in society which is why they mingle with many different groups to test out where they belong. Or they have low self-esteem and confidence, which causes them change personalities so quickly and drastically in order to be liked by that particular group or crowd. It makes them feel good as a result. Sometimes they’re aware of what they’re doing and sometimes they’re not. If they’re genuinely unaware, these things can be harmless but tiring. But if they are aware, it’s not only tiresome but it’s extremely childish, at least to me. I cannot stand these types of people because you know they are intentionally doing this to come off as “mysterious” or “alluring” and that’s just plain sickening and rather intolerable. And you end up never knowing who they really are and they’re enjoying every minute of it!

However, there’s another side to the situation: perhaps it’s not identity issues but she’s just being normal. Yes, to those who are more down-to-earth, different personas can be cumbersome and stupid, but this is how normal people act. My sister, for example, is like this. With me, she’s just laidback, carefree, and quiet. With others, she’s either a) intelligent b) outgoing c) sweet and kind or e) loud and “young.” While I tear my hair out whenever she switches personas, this is considered normal because if you are with a certain group, you tend to act like people in the group. Another example: when I was working the front in my previous job, a very nice and quiet Japanese guy would come in by himself and he became a regular. He started making friends and one day he came in with his rambunctious buddies and BAM! He became loud and impatient and rather crude. A week later, he comes in by himself and it’s back to his quiet and meek ways.

Originally Posted by Meiko

A couple of years ago we decided to have a party for Halloween and decided to list all costumes people were going to wear, trying to avoid to have too many persons with the same costume. A. reads the list and says her costume is going to be x. Then at the party she has another costume, that was already taken, but since her costume is made by professional tailor, looks way better than the one of the other person, who simply got it from a local store. It was not a big deal, really, having two persons wearing the same kind of costume. It's the principle that pissed me off, that she had to steal the idea, just because she couldn't decide with her own head, and made the other girl feel bad because her costume wasn't as good as hers.

The same goes for anything A. has to do on her own. She is supposed to do it on her own, but in fact she copies from somebody else. At school we were often given some form of creative project, like writing, to do. She reads what other write, or asks others about what they are going to write. She says she's curious, nothing more. Then she steals the ideas she likes more. Since she's good at school and she studies a lot, her stuff is often better than the stuff that inspired her. Sometimes a person that is more creative ended with worse results just because she knows how to make things look better, because she's good at writing or she's a very diligent student and knows what teachers will enjoy more reading. It's not her creation, it's somebody else's but it looks like it's the other person who copied from her. Sometimes she even copied from the internet.

She doesn't understand it's wrong. She says: "I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just looking for inspiration" or "If it's not copyrighted, it means it's public domain" or "Nobody invents anything. All the things you like are copied from another source too. That is not copying, it's reinventing" or "What's wrong if I like the same things you like? Is the album or the movie x your exclusive property? No, it isn't, you're only jealous that somebody else likes it as much as you do, if not more".

And here is where I feel that she is just being plain lazy. Her stealing the other girl’s costume and making the other girl feel bad, her stealing writing ideas from other people (not to mention the internet...does she actually copy internet papers word to word? If so, what she’s doing is, um, what’s that word, plagiarism! ) and her acknowledging the fact she is stealing from people...like I said, it seems like it’s either laziness or extreme unimaginativeness and she is definitely immoral. Frankly, the identity issue of hers (if it’s legitimate) annoys me, but this sort of behavior infuriates me. What’s even worse is that she is, as you said, a good student and rather diligent yet she is so utterly lazy she won’t even bother trying to come up with her own ideas and only knows how to swoop in and “reinvent” something for the better (though, I have to admit, she’ll get far in business especially if her co-workers are too meek to fend for themselves). Then she has the audacity to spew out ‘"What's wrong if I like the same things you like? Is the album or the movie x your exclusive property? No, it isn't, you're only jealous that somebody else likes it as much as you do, if not more".’ Goodness, any more immaturity and my head’s going to explode. Back to the subject matter, in this case, yes, it’s wrong of her to do this. Even though what she said about “all things are copied from another source” is true, it seems she refuses to step up and try to come up with anything of her own, so in this case, she’s the one in the wrong.

Originally Posted by Meiko

I don't know what to do when a person is like that

I’m sorry Meiko, but I honestly don’t know either. Personally, even though she is a good person as you said, I’d just avoid her and wouldn’t be friends with her anymore. Sorry, but I have a very low tolerance for people like this and life is just too short and my time is too valuable to waste on such persons, even if they have some good qualities. And yes, flaws are flaws, but this is a very huge flaw because it’s harmful and a burden to others.

[Redpyramidhead]

Originally Posted by merylsilverburg

However, there’s another side to the situation: perhaps it’s not identity issues but she’s just being normal. Yes, to those who are more down-to-earth, different personas can be cumbersome and stupid, but this is how normal people act. My sister, for example, is like this. With me, she’s just laidback, carefree, and quiet. With others, she’s either a) intelligent b) outgoing c) sweet and kind or e) loud and “young.” While I tear my hair out whenever she switches personas, this is considered normal because if you are with a certain group, you tend to act like people in the group. Another example: when I was working the front in my previous job, a very nice and quiet Japanese guy would come in by himself and he became a regular. He started making friends and one day he came in with his rambunctious buddies and BAM! He became loud and impatient and rather crude. A week later, he comes in by himself and it’s back to his quiet and meek ways.

[/color]

I tend to act a little bit differently when with different people sometimes. I always just assumed it meant I was good at adapting to the situation. When I talk to somebody in a somewhat different way I might talk to another person, I believe it to be because I have the ability to learn what that person is like personality-wise and then talk to them in a way they most enjoy if I am truly interested in being that person's friend. Me and that friend then tend to be able to communicate better and cool things happen like we'll end up having a lot of inside jokes What I am talking about might be different, though.

Back to the other thing...

As for that friend of yours, Meiko. I think Meryl is right about her being pretty lazy. I also think she is extremely manipulative and uses that for her own personal gain at the cost of others waaayyyy too much. I wouldn't trust a friend like that. She honestly can't find her own interests and stick with them, either? That's pretty sad. I just worry that someday this girl is going to go too far and you may get hurt Meiko. Don't remain friends with somebody just because they CAN be nice.

_RED_ stuff

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I tend to act a little bit differently when with different people sometimes. I always just assumed it meant I was good at adapting to the situation. When I talk to somebody in a somewhat different way I might talk to another person, I believe it to be because I have the ability to learn what that person is like personality-wise and then talk to them in a way they most enjoy if I am truly interested in being that person's friend. Me and that friend then tend to be able to communicate better and cool things happen like we'll end up having a lot of inside jokes What I am talking about might be different, though.

No, you're not wrong. Your behavior is no different from other people out there. The fact is, a good portion of people do change their personas whenever they're talking to a certain type of person(s). It's just the way it is; it makes conversations and relations easier and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just a social behavior that I feel most people would and should adopt because it's beneficial. So don't feel bad about your behavior Red.

[Meiko]

I see your points, but I don't know if I am able to stop being friends with anybody

I can't agree on one point though: I don't think she's lazy. I've known her for a long time, and she's not the kind of person who does that because of laziness. It's like with kleptomaniacs. It's not that they always want what they steal, or that they don't have money to buy it. It's an impulse they seem unable to control. The only big difference is she tries to justify her actions in an arrogant way, which is bothering.

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Meiko

I can't agree on one point though: I don't think she's lazy. I've known her for a long time, and she's not the kind of person who does that because of laziness. It's like with kleptomaniacs. It's not that they always want what they steal, or that they don't have money to buy it. It's an impulse they seem unable to control. The only big difference is she tries to justify her actions in an arrogant way, which is bothering.

Okay, I'm a bit confused now on what the real problem is. Because, from what you wrote, it seemed the problem you are having with your friend is that she steals from other people, not that she acts arrogantly to justify her behavior.

If you know her behavior isn't laziness and that her problem is simply an uncontrollable sort of disorder or some sort of psychological disorder, then why would you get so upset that she's denying stealing anything? If it's an actual disorder, then you should try to get her some help instead.

Or, if it's not an actual disorder, but the problem is that she continues to refute accusations on being in the wrong, then I don't see what the big problem is. If you and others continue to tell her or try to convince her that she's doing wrongs things but she continues to deny it, then there's no point in saying "I have a problem with my friend" because a person like this will always be like this because they will never admit it or they truly just don't *see* their issue or they really don't think anything is wrong. This will be something that you and her other friends will have to accept because you can't change persons like this no matter what...unless, I don't know, something insanely drastic happens that really makes her realize it.

And I was simply accusing her of being lazy because of what you wrote. It seems she is capable of coming up with ideas herself and she does acknowledge that she *does* steal but doesn't think she's wrong or won't admit it, so in my mind she appeared lazy. I wouldn't and couldn't know whether I was right or wrong because I'm not her friend.

Anyway, I had another idea: maybe you can try to get her back by stealing of the ideas she stole (example: if she stole an outfit idea from someone, maybe you can steal the outfit idea from her) but a plan like this might backfire since she probably won't get it or might think "Hey! Now you finally understand that stealing isn't wrong!"

[Ki-Rin]

It's the way of the world. Nikolai Tesla, who invented the Tesla coil, invented thousands of other things during his life. For about 90% of them, he got no money. For about 60%, no recognition. Many of the 'famous' inventors who have existed just took ideas from someone else who had already developed them. Isaac Newton, for all his genius, merely took ideas that were hundreds of years old a step further.

Plagiarism is the name of the game. It's only in school, and in places where you can't defend it, that it's illegal.