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[happy_doughnut]

God, this table is so high... I can barely reach the keyboard...

Huh? Oh! *ahem*

So, the November elections are already around the corner, and if you haven't registered to vote, you should do so (Vote Kerry!) because... well, I don't know. I just wanted to say that.

But really now, if you are registered, what are your hopes for the outcomes of these November elections? Are you hoping that another will take the seat and take the U$ (hopefully) in a new direction? Or are you all for Dubya getting his second chance (he would be so sad! He would know - "he was one")?

For those that don't live in the U$, what do you think of the U$ and it's current standing? I mean, erm, what do you think? Should another Pres be given a go, or should the old one stay?

Tell, tell! Oh, and don't forget the "why's." Okthanks! ^__^

[Faile]

For the record I'm British. I believe, completely with all my heart, that we (the world) need Bush out of power. Not only because he was not legally elected President in the first place and only got into power because Jed Bush (Governer of Florida, brother of Bush) blocked thousands of people from the Ballot and stole the state of Florida from Gore. Bush has turned the world, via his completely stupid and jingoistic foreign policy, into a less safe place to live in. He has sent 1000 Americans to die in what, essentially, is the Vietnam of out Generation. Like Vietnam, the war in the Gulf, was completely unnecessary. The war in Iraq was purely for money and the need to create an attitude in America that is similar to Orwell's 1984. To retain power Bush must rely upon the terrorists and like to maintain fear and thus maintain the ever contstant war (on terror). With the American people scared of Terrorist strikes, attacks, whatever, Bush hopes and plays upon the fact that it would apparently be unwise to have the only regime change that can save us now. He has to go.
And that's only his foreign policy.

His domestic policy only benefits the Rich and is selling the American workers out. He is overtly bigoted and backward in his attitudes to women. His administration is corrupt and has links to major companies that they allow to win large government contracts thus creating themselves more money and the Enron incident should have brought the whole edifice down but luckily happened in the post September 11th world and was easily swept under the carpet.

The world needs Bush out and it's up to you, Americans, to see he is pushed out of power. Kerry is stronger on Domestic policy and Foreign policy, and whilst not perfect, he can at least conduct himself in a correct manner, has not (unlike Bush) been arrested for drink driving and has not (unlike Bush) used his standing to skip serving in Vietnam. Kerry is not perfect, but please - he needs to get elected this year. Another four years of Bush and we'll be close to World War Three or something equally dangerous.

xx

[missingno]

well to tell you the truth Brenda~ i dont like any of them.
aslong as bush is out of *power* i will be happy.

why?

~well he (bush) says we would be more "safe" with him...
umm Mr.Bush-wacker... a couple of years ago we were attacked with YOU in power.. and we are suppose to be safe with you?
~you said we would catch the terrorists... umm did we catch them? (bin laden) nope! you werent even close... you werent even in the right COUNTRY !
~Bush is attacking Kerry 'because he (kerry) supposedly didnt get shot in the war (vietnam) and didnt deserve the purple heart...
umm hello Mr. Bush-wacker you didnt even go to war.. as a matter of fact your daddy paid , so you didnt have to go to war...4 TIMES!!
~and hes just plain stupid.. he doesnt know how to speak... he doesnt know what hes talking about.. hes always licking his lips..he looks like a monkey... theres too many issues... too many things wrong with bush...

of course im gonna vote.. but will it matter? hell no.. just like everyone voted for the other guy (what was his name... ) and Bush still won.. and i bet hes gonna win again...

[Hyuuga Neji]

Both candidates are bad, kerry flip flops on all the issues and never takes a stand and bush made a load full of promises when he was elected that he never completed and is just restating those in his re-election campaign, and anyone who isnt american don't take this the wrong way but i think the US Government needs to be run by someone who looks at home for terriorism and start focusing on taking care of its own people and not everyone else. Let other people deal with their own problems and if in the end they need help and ASK for it then help them out, is there such a candidate out there?

[Mannofiron]

If you didn't read my death penalty diatribe I'll tell you I'm pretty far right (and I can see that's a whole 'nother side of the road than some here but it's all cool) and I both like and dislike Bush.

I agree with the war. I think it was based on poor intelligence WMD-wise, but in his situation, the information he was given would practically require a leader to go to war from what he knew (or was told). But WMD aside, it was something that needed to be done. History has shown that democracy and freedom never co-exists peacefully with totalitarianism. Saddam Hussien was a tyrant and it was in the best interest of our country to remove him from his position. Peace is great, but there can never be peace when evil exists. I am against the UN: it is corrupt and inefficient. The very idea that undemocratic nations are let in is obscene. How shameful that civilized countries get kicked off of human rights councils and China and Sudan ran it for a while...reform is needed here.

Economically, he has done a fair to good job. I like his tax cuts (I am high-middle to lower-high class but I don't even pay taxes yet so it's not like I'm a direct beneficiary of his actions). Even so, I think that the tax system in America stinks: it is not right to have people paying disproportiate amounts of taxes. A flat tax rate would be more fair, but I would settle for at least lowering the insane amount of taxes on the upper class. They do, after all, stimulate the economy and invest more than any other group. It's important also to remember that the lower classes did get tax breaks as well, it just went to help the rich more, since the top 1% pays well over 30% of taxes. It would be ideal to have a consumption tax, but that would never happen.

Socially/domestically, I am uncertain of his job from a conservative standpoint. I agree with him on many of the hot issues (abortion, gay marriage (though an amendment is unnecessary in my opinion), etc.) but his handling of other issues leaves me worried. First off, he spends way too much to be fiscally sound. I know a war hurts the budget, but on the home front he is too reliant on government spending for my tastes. I would have liked to see welfare reform and a push for less gun control (very important to a big founding fathers fan like me) but these can be addressed in a second term (fingers crossed) or by another president. I was disappointed in his educational program, which I feel the federal gov't should stay out of. The state and local governments can handle this. No Child Left Behind is another example of gov't inefficiency and meddling when local people can do better.

I wouldn't be distressed if Kerry took office (I don't think he will but he definitely has a shot), I just think Bush is the better man for the job. It's of utmost importance to me that some good conservative supreme court justices get appointed (though the senate battles will be vicious) and that the Iraqi conflict be lead by a man with conviction. We can't abandon the area now while it is still struggling for democracy and freedom.

In good faith to all,
Doom (haha, ironically a totalitarian ruler himself)

P.S. Can't you guys get over the election of 2000? Peoples who can't vote correctly should not be given a vote, because an unclear vote is decided by a biased election judge. The fact that Florida was called for Gore obscenely early turned away many republicans when in fact the state was still close. Many recounts showed Bush the winner, and people trying to determine the "intent" of a voter who can't punch a hole through a card might have changed that because of bias.

[Hyuuga Neji]

Originally Posted by Mannofiron

If you didn't read my death penalty diatribe I'll tell you I'm pretty far right (and I can see that's a whole 'nother side of the road than some here but it's all cool) and I both like and dislike Bush.

I agree with the war. I think it was based on poor intelligence WMD-wise, but in his situation, the information he was given would practically require a leader to go to war from what he knew (or was told). But WMD aside, it was something that needed to be done. History has shown that democracy and freedom never co-exists peacefully with totalitarianism. Saddam Hussien was a tyrant and it was in the best interest of our country to remove him from his position. Peace is great, but there can never be peace when evil exists. I am against the UN: it is corrupt and inefficient. The very idea that undemocratic nations are let in is obscene. How shameful that civilized countries get kicked off of human rights councils and China and Sudan ran it for a while...reform is needed here.

There are somethings that you said that i agreed with yet somethings i don't and will address. First your opinion on the U.N. is rather bias, i agree that it has its problems mainly that the U.S. owns the U.N. and we can do what we please with it but for the american citzens it just means that we aren't alone that other people feel the same way. I think the U.N. is a must thing inorder to keep the aliances open and continue the trades from the countries, also the U.N. helps calm and stabilize the out crys and allows not only U.S. troops to be put into harms way but other countries to help pitch in.

The part on Bush helping the economy i disagree, the reason i disagree is that i live in Wisconsin and Wisconsin lost over 80,000 manufacturing jobs to over seas and putting this states economy in a downward spiral, and bush allowing tax breaks to big corporations that decide to take their jobs over seas is wrong, but on the flip side of the coin he is now don't quote me onthis but is talking about not giving companies that send over seas jobs tax breaks but making it harder?

I think that Kerry would have a better shot at this election if he would just take a stance and stick with it. That is all i have to say at the momeny hope it wasn't too boring.

[Mannofiron]

Those are some excellent points as well.

I'll agree that the UN or something like it is necessary, but in need of reform. I'd rather see a more economic role for this organization and a lesser political influence. It has been shown to be corrupt in more ways than one and I think this needs to be addressed. I'd rather have an open forum to meet and discuss rather than forced political power, but it would be hard to assure people would adhere to rules agreed on in this type of situation.

Economically, I don't mind the loss of jobs overseas...outsourcing happens. It's part of the job cycle and this is just a bigger case of it. After all, global trade opens up the market and encourages more competition, better products and lower prices. Plus, it increases standard of living. Corporations and businesses are taxed heavily here and workers demand a lot...it is only good business that they go overseas. Better jobs will be created here to replace those that can be handled elsewhere.

Gotta hit the sack for now,
Doom

[Hyuuga Neji]

Yes out cycle is necessary but needs to be regulated so you don't put your own people into poverty, right now in this country there is the rich and the poor no inbetween, you can afford out sourcing but you need to have a balance.

[IcyMourdor]

I wish Dean didn't blow all his money on his campaign. I would have liked to vote for him for president.

I am currently unsure of who I am going to vote for. Neither Kerry nor Bush make me jump out of my seat to run to the polls. Nader on the other hand has issues I would stand for, but I highly doubt that he will be able to get any points from the Electoral College.

I may vote for Kerry due to the fact that the House of Reps will be under Democrat control again then. That is where we can make a lot of changes for the better of this country. Although, I hear Italy is a nice place to live

[Redpyramidhead]

Personally (and this is no joke,) if Bush gets re-elected, I think I may move to Colombia and would, in fact, feel much safer there.

_RED_ stuff

[Faile]

I'm going to have jump back a few points here, but I cannot still to this day believe that people feel it was correct to go to war in Iraq. There are no weapons of mass destruction there, there have been no weapons of mass destruction there since the early nineties (and then nothing compared to the USA, UK, Russia, China) and we will find not one weapon of such in Iraq. Iraq has no links to Al Queda under Saddam Hussein, and while Saddam was a dictator, I could provide you with enough sources to show that U.S influence has caused more than a comparable level of atrocity in various countries since 1945.
What the Iraq war has acheived, however, is provide a Terrorists with a nesting ground, increased the level of insurgency in the Middle East (cross referencing the attacks in Saudi Arabia) and Iraq and is generally acting as a deathtrap for the poor people we send over there. 1000 Americans + have been caused as a result of this needless war, not to mention those of other countries who were strong armed or coerced into Iraq.

Secondly, to call the United Nations "corrupt and inefficient" is not only incredibly biased but also incredibly wrong. As for undemocratic countries then one need look no further than the U.S, where one family can buy an election in the interests of making more money. I hate the sheer jingoistic attitude of calling countries such as China 'uncivilised'. It was certainly civilised enough for Kissenger and Nixon to buddy up to in their time. Also, you state that, in your words, more civilised countries are 'kicked off' human rights councils. Do have a reference point for this?

Now, on to social issues. The Bush tax cuts only benefit the rich and the wealthier end of the middle class, whilst continuing to tax the poorer people who can ill afford it. Whilst opening up gaping wholes in the economy that are then hard to fill, this has the upside of saving loads of money for the rich and those that have major stakes in big companies. Not unlike the Bush Administration and his pals. It's completely unbalanced and really needs to be sorted, which I'm afraid, can probably only be done under Democrat rule.
The Bush administrations rules on Gay Marriage and Abortion are about 500 years out of date. I'm surprised they don't still think that the world flat. It's very odd for them to follow the bible so closely and yet still think it's fine to conduct the invasion of Iraq. It's a removal of public choice and personal freedom in both cases. The Bush administrations views on this are out of place in the 21st century.

It's fine to be in favour of free trade until you yourself lose your job to it, or your family lose their jobs to it. Internal industry needs to be kept within countries and not shipped out to Mexico or wherever. I'd agree with it a lot more in the Mexicans are being paid equal rates to Americans and there was too much employment in America but it never happens like that. All the companies that outsource/downsize are turning huge profits. The only reason they have to move out of America is the wish to make more money. They have no care for those they employ.

As for 2000, well I can again provide various sources showing that something very odd happened in Florida such as the removal of hundreds of non-white Americans. I.E those unlikely to vote for the Republican party. Couple this with the fact that the Bush Family has great links to Florida then I'd say that this was a calculated ploy that managed to steal an election. It's hard to forget, very hard. The democrats need to get in. For the record, I thought Kerry did a good job last night in the debate. He had Bush on the ropes for a while. It was a joy to watch Kerry quote Bush Snr at him. Completely flummoxed him. Not that it would be too hard of course...

I'm not meaning to have a personal attack at anyone here. I just feel the need for political debate is important and that everyone should always speak their mind in these cases.

xx

[RobHardo]

I'd like to ask about a certain analogy Kerry used in the debate.

I don't remember exact words, but he said something along the lines of Bush going to Iraq would be like Franklin D. Roosevelt invading Mexico for the attack on Pearl Harbor. It just did not make since to me. In my opinion it was a bad choice of words, and a bad analogy. But Bush was stuck on the wrong war, wrong ptime, wrong place thing. But I'm still a Bush supporter.

P.s.
If I were old enough I'd be in Afghanistan right now fighting to protect our nation from further attacks(notice I referred to Afghanistan only, just remember that before i get a reply.)

[Redpyramidhead]

AMEN to that Faile! Since I could not have said it better right now I have little to add to that, but if this debate heats up my beliefs may require me to speak out. Thank you for saying what you said Faile... it really helps to hear other people who share similar opinions on such a subject. I lose sleep over what has happened to this country that I live in. I think that is something somebody in Mannifiron's position would find hard to understand. I fear the Bush administration, not only for wwhat it has done to my country, but what it is capable of doing in the future if re-elected. I have absolutely no trust in a man such as Bush and all of his cronies, who do not listen to the American people or, just as importantly, the rest of the world. How dare somebody be elected to such an influential office in this world and ignore the voices of the people; that being the very principle upon which the instituion was founded on. This is not democracy.

And, might I simply add that the purpose of the U.N. is to bring countries together, despite any differences, so that these countries may work together in crisis situations so that preventable happening such as world wars can be averted. It was created for this very reason. The best example of a nation who's government is alienating the U.N right now is that of the U.S. The U.N. as a collective was doing it's job to see that a situation such as the U.S. invading Iraq did not occur becuase it felt collectively this would result in a breeding ground for terror and violent repercussions for the world for decades to come...perhaps longer. For Bush to ignore this takes incredible arrogance that rivals saddam hussein and perhaps surpasses that of many terrorist out there. All he has succeeded in doing is making our country more hated and targeted than ever before, and as Faile said... the perfect breeding ground for such terror now exists right in Iraq.

No presiden in U.S. history has been more dangerous to the safety, standard of living, and freedom of the american people. I am voting for John Kerry in November.

_RED_ stuff

[merylsilverburg]

Everyone in my town is voting for Kerry (especially all the vegans/vegetarians) and I can't say I blame them. Though, Kerry has his own bad points even though he is the more eloquent speaker than Dubya (I mean, c'mon...did you see the debate last night? Bush was all like "Um, well, err, gee, uhh..." ).

[Infernal Mass]

https://www.youforgotpoland.com

[Hyuuga Neji]

Originally Posted by Faile

I'm going to have jump back a few points here, but I cannot still to this day believe that people feel it was correct to go to war in Iraq. There are no weapons of mass destruction there, there have been no weapons of mass destruction there since the early nineties (and then nothing compared to the USA, UK, Russia, China) and we will find not one weapon of such in Iraq. Iraq has no links to Al Queda under Saddam Hussein, and while Saddam was a dictator, I could provide you with enough sources to show that U.S influence has caused more than a comparable level of atrocity in various countries since 1945.
What the Iraq war has acheived, however, is provide a Terrorists with a nesting ground, increased the level of insurgency in the Middle East (cross referencing the attacks in Saudi Arabia) and Iraq and is generally acting as a deathtrap for the poor people we send over there. 1000 Americans + have been caused as a result of this needless war, not to mention those of other countries who were strong armed or coerced into Iraq.

Secondly, to call the United Nations "corrupt and inefficient" is not only incredibly biased but also incredibly wrong. As for undemocratic countries then one need look no further than the U.S, where one family can buy an election in the interests of making more money. I hate the sheer jingoistic attitude of calling countries such as China 'uncivilised'. It was certainly civilised enough for Kissenger and Nixon to buddy up to in their time. Also, you state that, in your words, more civilised countries are 'kicked off' human rights councils. Do have a reference point for this?

Now, on to social issues. The Bush tax cuts only benefit the rich and the wealthier end of the middle class, whilst continuing to tax the poorer people who can ill afford it. Whilst opening up gaping wholes in the economy that are then hard to fill, this has the upside of saving loads of money for the rich and those that have major stakes in big companies. Not unlike the Bush Administration and his pals. It's completely unbalanced and really needs to be sorted, which I'm afraid, can probably only be done under Democrat rule.
The Bush administrations rules on Gay Marriage and Abortion are about 500 years out of date. I'm surprised they don't still think that the world flat. It's very odd for them to follow the bible so closely and yet still think it's fine to conduct the invasion of Iraq. It's a removal of public choice and personal freedom in both cases. The Bush administrations views on this are out of place in the 21st century.

It's fine to be in favour of free trade until you yourself lose your job to it, or your family lose their jobs to it. Internal industry needs to be kept within countries and not shipped out to Mexico or wherever. I'd agree with it a lot more in the Mexicans are being paid equal rates to Americans and there was too much employment in America but it never happens like that. All the companies that outsource/downsize are turning huge profits. The only reason they have to move out of America is the wish to make more money. They have no care for those they employ.

As for 2000, well I can again provide various sources showing that something very odd happened in Florida such as the removal of hundreds of non-white Americans. I.E those unlikely to vote for the Republican party. Couple this with the fact that the Bush Family has great links to Florida then I'd say that this was a calculated ploy that managed to steal an election. It's hard to forget, very hard. The democrats need to get in. For the record, I thought Kerry did a good job last night in the debate. He had Bush on the ropes for a while. It was a joy to watch Kerry quote Bush Snr at him. Completely flummoxed him. Not that it would be too hard of course...

I'm not meaning to have a personal attack at anyone here. I just feel the need for political debate is important and that everyone should always speak their mind in these cases.

xx

Many of the things that you are quoting of getting resources do have things and theories that support them but also alot of other sources that contradict them, the war on iraq was i believe necessary but the way it went about was not right and i like kerry's platform that was shown last night, and i noticed that you are really pointing at the US what about britian and your prime minister that agreed with bush and when this was going on showing him talking and supporting and participating in these events?? What does that say about Blair?? And Britian?? I had to bring these up because as i was reading your statements the obsessing over what the us did and not the other countries that are participating in this, no one made them participate and a general announcement was put out asking for help. Like ever contraversial(sp) topic out there, there is always two side to every coin. The bias one sided arguements that show US as such a bad country makes me say the statment that the US should pull out of every country and markets and allow them to do everything on their own. And when a problem occurs allow them to handle it, i know this getting a little off topic but its just amazing to me that when the US acts on its own they are Tyrants, but as soon as someones ass is on the line or needs help who are the first people that they come running to??

O and Red not trying to be mean but if you have such a problem with america maybe you should move, ya things are perfect thats the world but the choices that you are allowed to make here in the US can change i dont support bushes tactics in iraq and outsourcing but i still love my country and am patriotic for it, are you not a proud to be an american where you are free?

Thats all that i can type now as i am finishing with work.

Thanks
-Neji

[Hyuuga Neji]

Since i couldnt edit that last post it was meant to say aren't perfect just wanted to clearify.

[Redpyramidhead]

Don't even get me started on what patriotism is, Neji. Patriotism is sticking up for what the american PEOPLE need and being proud of this countriy's PEOPLE (and everything that comes with that...diversity, culture, what we have to teach eachother) much much MUCH more than it has to do with supporting the current administration in power especially if that adminisitration does NOT listen to the PEOPLE. ANother thing you don't understand (and this is the same type of thinking ppl in other parts of the world have when they indiscriminately blame american citizens for what our government does) is that the leader of a country does not represent the entire collective thinking of that country. You cannot call Faile a hypocrite in any way whatsoever based on the actions of another person... in this case that person being Blair. Faile did not attack U.S. citizens or the U.S. as a whole in his comments. What he spoke out against was the Bush administration and its tactics and I think he did so in a very reasonable manner.

Finally, even if you say "no offense" when saying I should move to another country if I do not like it here, I take very much offense anyways. Not only DO I like it here and that is why I am patriotic enough to stand up for the rights of my country's people by speaking out against forces that I feel opress their rights so that I can do my small part with what little rights to freedom of speech we still have, but I also feel I am part of a dying breed of patiotism that has been told by people who are afraid to go against the grain and demand more from their government. I feel persecuted and mocked when you say things like I should leave the U.S. In fact, I think you should take this as a lesson. The next person you are disrespectful enough to say that to may not be so willing to take it in stride. And I wouldn't blame them. It is everybody's right in this country not to be persecuted or mocked in this country for their beliefs, especially not by being told to leave. That is totally uncalled for. Though, I may feel other parts of the world would be more comfortable to live in if Bush were re-elected... it does not mean I do not love my country. When I shout "GO USA!" I shout for all the people and their rights that it stands for.

Thank you.

_RED_ stuff

[Hyuuga Neji]

Like i said it wasnt meant to be takin personally but i never called faile a hypocrite in anyway all i did was change the focus from only america to involve the whole world and to stop pointing at just one country. And i do too know what being patriotic is and i do not agree with the president i mean shoot im enlisted in the military, and i would do anything for this country, but if you take offense to a different view on what you said and other peoples feelings im sorry but everyone has their own views and definitions on what things mean. And people will take your comments and others comments their own way, im just sick and tired of the US gettings pointed at and people saying of if this happens im going to move well then get out and promote kerry's campaign do something that will make an impact or try to do something to make an impact for what you want.

[goodman]

Without a doubt, everyone has the right to their belief, and in some instances to their lifestyles here in the U.S. I know Alec Baldwin and Barbara Streisand are glad that the American people have forgotten their statements during the first Bush election four years ago. Saying all kinds of things against then Governor Bush, and threatening to leave the country if he were elected, they then within reason shut their yaps once he was elected so as to not tick off any more of the many people they upset with their comments. Baldwin in particular has been in many movies and other productions over the past four years, im sure he is very grateful to be living in the country he lives in instead of Afghanistan or some other country that his thought patterns more closely model...