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[Harry]

Here is the press release from Microsoft

Microsoft Game Studios today announced that Fable, the exclusive Xbox® roleplaying adventure game, has gone gold. Fable is scheduled to ship to retailers in North America on September 14 for an estimated retail price of $49.95 (U.S.).

Fable will be available in Europe in October. Developed by Peter Molyneux's studio Big Blue Box in conjunction with Lionhead Studios, Fable offers players the opportunity to develop a unique character by making choices that determine their character's skills, reputation and appearance.

In Fable, the players' every action determines their character's skills, appearances and moralities. Character's life stories are created from childhood through adulthood and on to old age. They can grow from an inexperienced child into the most powerful being in the world, spoken of by all and immortalized in legend.

Players may choose the paths of righteousness or dedicate their characters' lives to evil; observing as they transform into reflections of their actions and decisions. Age leaves characters wizened, battle leaves them scarred, gluttony affects obesity. With experiences come advancement and physical change; whether it is by expanding muscles, a keen eye and nimble form or the buzz of magical energies around their finger tips. As players' characters develop, the world reacts to them and their actions.

People comment on their successes, failures, appearances and behaviors. Their many opinions are expressed through applause, mockery, trepidation, panic and even flirtation. With each person characters aid and every creature they slay, the world is changed forever.

In Fable, gamers decide: "Who will I be?" For more information about Fable, visit the official site at https://www.xbox.com/en-US/fable/default.htm.

[kupoartist]

Peter Molyneux + Hype = "I'll believe it when I see it". He never did publically apologise for the travesty that was Black & White.

[Harry]

I never was against Peter Molyneux nor against Black & White. The game wasn't as it was supposed to be, and Fable will definitely not be "the best RPG of all times", but I think the game could offer an engrossing experience. I personally don't like too much what I've seen so far about the combat system, but I like the overall brave concept of the game.

[kupoartist]

Originally Posted by Harry

but I like the overall brave concept of the game.

That's the Molyneux hallmark right there. It's undeniable that this guy is quite a visionary... the concept for many of his games have been "out there", but with this comes the inevitable hype generated by publishers and journalists, and at the end of the day, the game ends up unforgiveably flawed and a massive disappointment for anyone who ever heard claims of "best thing eva TM!". Black & White was full of wonderful little ideas... but frankly, I and everyone else I know who was looking foward to it was shocked with just how basically unplayable and devoid of fun the whole experience was. It didn't help when a large percentage of the Gaming Press reviewed it with "Best Game Eva" percentages and dialogues... Made you wonder if they'd actually played the game or whether they'd accepted a little payment on the side ^^.

Fable likewise has come with all this extra hype... thankfully, it shouldn't be marred by the god-awful micro-management that B&W had (because it doesn't take the Strategy/God game route), so perhaps it may just offer an engrossing experience... but why does it deserve to be played when so many games that offer just that (or more) get totally ignored because they don't have some crazy concept or a reknowned designer?

[Harry]

I liked Black & White, and I played it without having to review it; yes, its micro management elements were tedious and hampered its replay value, it had many bugs, and it required a more powerful system than what I expected at its release to be enjoyed, but it was still a good experience for those having the patience to go through the first hours. But I agree with you when you say that B&W couldn't be farther from a "best game eva". If I'm not wrong Kupoartist, you considered also The Sims a very tedious game - while I consider it a masterpiece. I think that when it comes to the Simulation genre, it's even harder to have an objective view on things, since they don't rely on instinctive mechanics like action or adventure games.

I like the concept behind Fable - the idea of following a character in a world where he isn't the main character, where there are other heroes to interact with, from his youth to his death is something that I find extremely captivating. Of course, if the game will not be able to create a great balance between a strong storyline and true freedom of choice given to the player, the overall experience will be entirely meaningless, on my opinion. But if well done, the final chapter with the death of your character could become a memorable and unique experience. It takes a visionary, or a mad man to try something like that, or at least a developer known for being a visionary

[kupoartist]

Originally Posted by Harry

If I'm not wrong Kupoartist, you considered also The Sims a very tedious game - while I consider it a masterpiece. I think that when it comes to the Simulation genre, it's even harder to have an objective view on things, since they don't rely on instinctive mechanics like action or adventure games.

A good point to make, certainly Perhaps the biggest downfall of hype like this, is that absolutely everyone assumes that the game will be magnificent, regardless of their individual tastes... still, I found Black & White an extremely exciting sounding game from what was described, but to cut this short: the villagers pee'd me off ^^. That said, I have liked simulation games... though this tends to be on and off. I loved the original Sim City for instance, but hated 2000 (which many hail as the pinacle of the series). I liked Civilisation 2... but sucked so bad at it that I never really got into it. I adored the early Settlers games (and as far as mindless repeatative simulations go, they rank somewhere near the top as every mission was the same) but hated it once they got rid of building paths and having cute little donkeys carry your pails of water to the bakery ... Theme Hospital had similar problems of repeatition, but it was still great.... Black & White and The Sims just didn't hit the right chords with me... who knows why.

As an aside, of all the games to be released in the future, i'm actually suprisingly interested in the Sims 2 and Black & White 2... I figure that this is because I really liked certain things about them (and Molyneux and Wright are pretty much PC Gaming's visionaries, not to forget John Carmack though), but wasn't willing to wade through the stuff I didn't like to get there.... I hope they get the balance right this time though, because I 'd really like to play their games and enjoy them like the hype machine does ^^

[Harry]

I'm not a big player of Simulation games like Panuru is... I'm bad at a lot of them, including the Civilization games you mentioned. I never played the latest Sim City games, but just like you I loved the original games!

I'm curious to play The Sims 2, even if Panuru will play it much more than me, but I sadly didn't have a chance to read and see much about Black & White 2! By the way, speaking of hyped games and going a bit off topic, did you love the second Deus Ex game, if you played it? I've the box still unopened on my desk...

Going back to Fable... the game honestly attracted me since when it was announced, and not because of Molyneux's involvment in the project; I mean, Fable seems entirely different from Black & White, and I really didn't like when he started saying stuff like "best RPG of all times", just because of its supposed freedom. But the whole "life of a hero, from birth to death" thing is so Romantic... let's just hope I will not be the first one to be disappointed this September.

[kupoartist]

Originally Posted by Harry

By the way, speaking of hyped games and going a bit off topic, did you love the second Deus Ex game, if you played it? I've the box still unopened on my desk...

oohh... don't remind me. Now last year, sequels to 3 of my favorite games came out - Deus Ex 2, Unreal 2, Homeworld 2. They sucked in that order, worst to passable. Invisible War isn't a good game at all, regardless of the fact that it is a sequel to such a landmark title. It suffered badly for the X-Box/PC parallel development. The controls and interface are awful, the graphics are ugly (yet the whole game runs like a racehorse that has no legs) and the level-design is pathetic. For example, remember the Liberty Island map from Deus Ex 1? Well, at one point, you return there. Only, to cover up for the fact that: a. The engine can't cope with large areas and b. the engine can't even cope with water, the harbour is frozen and a wall of ice runs down the centre of the map!

Originally Posted by Harry

But the whole "life of a hero, from birth to death" thing is so Romantic...

It's such a good idea that it's a wonder that no one has done it before. I mean, role playing games rarely do enough to actually evolve the character you play as, beyond adding a few numbers to your total hit point or whatever... rarely is the first game to do this flawless, but I'd like to see Fable be good enough to influence the RPG genre which sometimes seem to lack such innovation. Or better, let it be so good that it creates a new benchmark that everyone aspires to (because otherwise, it'd just pass by without influencing anyone). That and let it be so good that they'll release it on some platform other than the X-Box. Like, one I own

[Harry]

Originally Posted by kupoartist

... rarely is the first game to do this flawless, but I'd like to see Fable be good enough to influence the RPG genre which sometimes seem to lack such innovation. Or better, let it be so good that it creates a new benchmark that everyone aspires to (because otherwise, it'd just pass by without influencing anyone).

I agree with you.

Hmmm and you gave me sad news about Invisible War - I loved the first Deus Ex game... a perfect example of how a vision can generate a gaming experience that really changes the rules of a genre, creating a new benchmark. I think that many of the best RPGs developed in the Western world in the latest years would have never existed without Deus Ex before them.

[goodman]

It will be interesting to see how Fable works out, im always curious why a game company chooses just one format to come out on. Seeing as the ps2 is immensely more popular of a console it will be interesting to see what success Fable has. I will look forward to anyone who plays it mentioning it. I dont and wont own a Xbox so the only way id play it if it went to another format....

[Dactrius]

Originally Posted by Harry

Hmmm and you gave me sad news about Invisible War - I loved the first Deus Ex game... a perfect example of how a vision can generate a gaming experience that really changes the rules of a genre, creating a new benchmark. I think that many of the best RPGs developed in the Western world in the latest years would have never existed without Deus Ex before them.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I seem to have contradicting views on Invisible War than Kupoartist. I think the problem was that too many people played the game whilst comparing it to the original. Now whilst this was what you would expect from gamers, I decided to play it as a stand-alone game and hence I found it very enjoyable. It doesn't compare to the first game, but on its' own it's quite an entertaining game. I think to be honest, more emphasis was put on the XBox version than the PC one which made it suffer, so if anything I'd suggest playing it on the XBox.

As for Fable, I too am afraid it's going to be hailed as something more than what it is, but I've no doubt it's going to be a very good game. If it delivers half of what it promised, I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

[kupoartist]

Originally Posted by Dactrius

I think the problem was that too many people played the game whilst comparing it to the original.

I disagree simply because the only thing that kept me playing the game was the fact I wanted to know what happened in the continuation of the original's storyline! If anything, I attribute my dislike to it to the fact that I compared it to any game I played before to see whether it was worthy of my time, yet to be fair to it, it is an awful game in it's own right. The graphics are awful compared to 90% of other games out there (I never thought I'd see the Unreal Engine 2 look so awful). The only good looking thing are the shadows, but just to make sure that you know the devs didn't know what they are doing, the Shadows do nothing with no stealth benefit whatsoever. The levels are little macro worlds containing little of interest, the enemy AI could have been ripped straight from the original Doom and the storyline is both derivative of the original, yet completely unengrossing, forcing you to interact with people and factions that you care nothing whatsoever about. Sure, having played the excellent Deus Ex made a crap sequel all the more disappointing, but it's a crap game regardless of what game it references in it's confusing and unentertaining plot. The only blessing is that retailers have enough unsold stock to shift, that you can get it for about £10 even though it hasn't reached budget yet.

[Harry]

The only thing I can say, and that I know from talking with an IGN reviewer is that the game plays much better on Xbox than on PC. He also mentioned that the interface on the PC is just awful.

And just to put a bit of optimism in this tragic thread I want to stress that as one of the biggest Star Wars fans in the whole world (I grew up with it!) I was graced by one of the best RPG games set in the Star Wars universe I could have ever dreamed to play - KOTOR. As a gamer, I can die happily. Maybe after I have had a chance to play SW: Galaxies. Hehehehe.

[Bogart]

It's sad people, because I now think that your fears were right. I read this thread a couple of days ago, then today I came across the first ever reviews of the game. Guess who had it? IGN and Teamxbox (which is still IGN, since IGN owns them). The reviewers wrote long reviews (strangely, divided in 8 pages on both sites), and gave the game high scores (9.3 and 9.1).

But, if you have followed the development of this game in these years, if like me you fell to the hype, I can't imagine how you couldn't be disappointed by what's written in the reviews. To put it simply, Fable is no longer open ended, has just 22 main quests, offers no longer a real world where your actions "shape your destiny" (wasn't this the trademark of the game), interaction with NPC is simplistic, other Heroes mean nothing in the game world and you are the only true main character (sorry Harry), and so on. Yes, I didn't play this game, but these are FACTS. I mean, these things aren't in the game. Fable can still be a perfect Adventure RPG, but it isn't the RPG it was always described as. I'm sorry if I sound angry, but I feel honestly betrayed by Peter Molyneux. I mean, if he didn't start all this campaign "this is the best RPG of all times" which he continued until a few months ago, and which he fueled by talking of the spectacular features of the game, I would probably now just buy Fable and enjoy it. The campaign also ruined a bit the hype around many great games. When Morrowind was in development and after that it was released (and Morrowind is a great game, despite the bugs and despite the fact it isn't for everyone) a lot of people on the Morrowind boards were saying "yes, but Fable will be much better". Why? Because Peter M. said so. When Kotor was in development and then after its release, people were saying "yes, but Fable will be much better". Why? Well, you know it.

I've been expecting an entirely different game, because of the words of developers, then why, as the reviewers of the aforementioned magazines suggest to do, should I "forget my expectations"??? In the Teamxbox review the reviewer talks about the fact that in the villages of the game you will hear legends about dragons; the reviewer continues, saying that originally those legends should have led to real quests against real dragons (why on earth are there so few fantasy games with dangerous, smart, fierce dragons to face???) in the game, but that have been left in the game just as... legends, you know. This is NOT what Molyneux promised us, this is not what millions of people were expecting. Let's face it, the developers were not fair with us.

Please don't think I'm a stupid with no life who cares only about games; it's just that small, stupid stuff like this shows how big names seems always more often to consider the public just as a target audience made of stupid bots. And reviews like those of IGN make me wish that psfantasy.com was an Xbox website.

[kupoartist]

All I can say is, ouch. Now it sounds like Fable is destined to disappoint regardless of its quality... I just think they shouldn't have gone public with the now retired concepts. Gaming is full of examples of "that looked so cool in the previews, so why didn't it make it to retail?" ... I should know, because I'm a sucker for reading about the things and concepts that never were. Perhaps this just goes to show that being open about your game and its features is a very bad thing.... best to go underground until you've actually got something concrete to show.

Then again, Fable hasn't actually disappointed anyone yet. Except me, but that's just because I think the font colour and style they used for the logo is unneccessarily reminiscent of Halo's ....

[Harry]

Hi Bogart,

I can't see anything against what you said. I perfectly understand your point of view, and, like you, I'm annoyed for many things that were left out of the game (including the dragons!!!).

One could say that as a visionary, Peter Molyneux deserves the benefit of the doubt - when he talks, unlike other developers, he talks about dreams, visions... But this isn't acceptable when you are the main voice of a company that's developing a game with the fame of being "best RPG of all times". And I agree with you about the fact that this campaign went against the hype surrounding other games; I don't think it affected sales, I just think it ruined the atmosphere in the official forums of those games, and in general even in many reviews of those games.

This said, Fable can very well be a great, exciting game - but let me quote Kupoartist here

Originally Posted by kupoartist

...so perhaps it may just offer an engrossing experience... but why does it deserve to be played when so many games that offer just that (or more) get totally ignored because they don't have some crazy concept or a reknowned designer?

The thread comes full circle?