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[Redpyramidhead]

It shouldnt have even come this close:

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13579789/?GT1=8211

Whether you believe in the burning of the flag or not for certain personal reasons, the very principle it stands for to be able to do so is much more important in this humble Redpyramidhead's opinion. It is called the First Amendment.

Comments?


_RED_ stuff

[Infernal Mass]

It failed, there's really no reason to press it any further..what's done is done, time to move on. 1 vote, 10 votes, it doesn't matter how close it was, because 1 is as strong as 10. There are alot of important issues ahead for the Senate. Although, for the sake of discussion..just imagine all the people who would be screaming bloody murder if it had indeed passed, but it didn't pass and still peolpe complain of how close it was.

Only in America.

[Faile]

Jesus, why people seem to think that a flag is so important is far beyond me. It harks back to the nationalism of Imperial times. A flag is nothing more than an object.
As the great Bill Hicks once said:
"'Hey buddy, my daddy died for that flag.'

'Really? I bought mine. Yeah, they sell them at K-Mart and shit.'

'He died in the Korean War.'

'Wow, what a coincidence. Mine was made in Korea.'

No one – and I repeat, no one – has ever died for a flag. See, a flag ... is just a piece of cloth. They may have died for freedom, which is also the freedom to burn the fucking flag, see. That's freedom."

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Faile

Jesus, why people seem to think that a flag is so important is far beyond me.

It's because people get offended because of what the flag represents...freedom, justice, and whatever. So by burning the thing, it's almost saying as if you're against all the principles that make you who you are...in the case of America, a "pure" American. I personally don't care...this news of the flag amendment, well, whoopee-doo-dah.

[Faile]

I'm sorry but no flag stands for freedom or justice. People continue to go to war and die for such stupid reasons as nationalism, and all a flag can ever be is a symbol of that nationalism, nothing more. It's a stupid thing, and if you're offended by its burning, you need to ask yourself why that is. As per the Hicks quote, freedom includes the freedom to burn the flag. I don't know, perhaps the American identity is so weak and wounded that burning the flag somehow damages it.

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Faile

and all a flag can ever be is a symbol of that nationalism, nothing more.

Actually you said it better than myself, this is what I meant to say. Regardless, since it's still a symbol of the nationalism, people would find it outrageous to burn it...because, again, burning it would mean you're against whatever symbolizes your nationality or your values...okay, now I'm just being repetitive, but I think you guys get the point.

Originally Posted by Faile

I don't know, perhaps the American identity is so weak and wounded that burning the flag somehow damages it.

I'm pretty sure not all Americans feel this way about burning of the flag, but smaller towns might...such as, I get the feeling all hell broke loose in the town where I work (small town that tried to kick out black people in their community 4-5 years ago...you do the math).

[Redpyramidhead]

Originally Posted by Infernal Mass

It failed, there's really no reason to press it any further..what's done is done, time to move on. 1 vote, 10 votes, it doesn't matter how close it was, because 1 is as strong as 10. There are alot of important issues ahead for the Senate. Although, for the sake of discussion..just imagine all the people who would be screaming bloody murder if it had indeed passed, but it didn't pass and still peolpe complain of how close it was.

Only in America.

Only in America would somebody not look at the numbers and not care what it meant.

1 vote short of a 2/3 majority needed. Think about it. Regardless of other factorsin the process of allowing an amendment ot the constitution, its still an example of how widespread nationalist propaganda and false patriotism has become within our government and in our country. But then again, maybe you are for such a thing. Maybe you are for infringing upon the 1st Amendment.

I believe allowing such laws against something as basic a right as desecration of the flag would be like opening the floodgates for these fascists and spineless jellyfish to literally invade the 1st Amendment with other proposals of restrictions previously thought proposterous. We've already seen it happen with the patriot acts. Fundamentals of our constitution become less sacred over time when this sort of thing becomes more widely accepted by indifferent americans and easily swayed politicians. Those whose purposes are blind to these and with their own personal agendas for the status quo would take full advantage of such a thing. Believe it.

_RED_ stuff

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

But then again, maybe you are for such a thing. Maybe you are for infringing upon the 1st Amendment.

Red, there's really no need to accuse Infernal just because he doesn't see the big deal about the one less vote. Yes, sure, it is somewhat shocking that the voting came this close and the possibility that this stupid amendment could've been passed is frightening. But Infernal was just saying that the numbers don't mean anything because if it were short of 10 votes, people would still say "Wow, look how close it came!" And since it's already been done, it's done, it's over. No need to dwell upon the past. Just because he doesn't share your anger or your shock over this subject doesn't mean you need to get on his case for it.

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

Regardless of other factorsin the process of allowing an amendment ot the constitution, its still an example of how widespread nationalist propaganda and false patriotism has become within our government and in our country.

Well, no offense, but this is and has always been the way it's been. It's nothing new. I mean since when has the US government not promote the widespread of false patriotism and other ridiculous things? So I just don't see why it's so shocking...the outcome to something like this should've been expected...well, at least to me, heh.

[Infernal Mass]

thanks meryl, it's good to know that there are some level headed people that still post here. Red, by attacking my comments you are exemplifying the very behavior that you stand so adamant against.

[RobHardo]

Well, in my opinion it's only proper to burn the flag when you are retiring it... i.e. it's so warn that it becomes inappropriate to fly....or when it touches the ground... it's all a respect thing.


Now, I wont be the first to pick up and fight someone disrespecting it because I feel it just becomes an object when someone who stands for everything that the flag doesn't has it in their posession

[Redpyramidhead]

Originally Posted by merylsilverburg

[color=black]
Well, no offense, but this is and has always been the way it's been. It's nothing new. I mean since when has the US government not promote the widespread of false patriotism and other ridiculous things? So I just don't see why it's so shocking...the outcome to something like this should've been expected...well, at least to me, heh.

Well, I am guilty of stating the obvious, apparently. I just tend to feel that even though something may be common knowledge at this point in time to politically aware people, it is still ok to bring it up in order to illustrate a point.

thanks meryl, it's good to know that there are some level headed people that still post here. Red, by attacking my comments you are exemplifying the very behavior that you stand so adamant against.

It seems that every now and then I am fighting a losing battle when it comes to expressing my thoughts and ideas because my somewhat heated nature of debating a topic is often interpreted as hostile or overly agressive. This way of speaking may work better in a forum (whether in person or online) where people are more used to heated political or social debates debates, but tends to offend in a forum like this one.

I apologize if you felt personally attacked, but I was just expressing my views. I did this by targeting it towards a specific audience, which would be anybody I felt is too comfortable with the fact this issue is going on. That is my opinion. Not fact. Because it is only my opinion, I don't think you should have to feel personally insulted by what I said. I was not saying that you personally would be ok with infractions upon the first amendment. I was only referring to what I feel is the larger issue at hand.


_RED_ stuff

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

Well, I am guilty of stating the obvious, apparently. I just tend to feel that even though something may be common knowledge at this point in time to politically aware people, it is still ok to bring it up in order to illustrate a point.

Yes, it's fine for you to state the obvious to inform people or to bring it up to illustrate a point. I never said you were wrong in this. But the only reason why I said in my prior post that "false patriotism and nationalist propaganda was nothing new for this country" was because of the way you seemed so stunned at the fact that the voting was lost only by 1 vote. It just seemed like you weren't expecting the government to be so swayed or brainwashed like that for such an outcome to happen (and again, no offense, but you don't have to be "politically aware" in order to "see" this). That's why I only merely commented (not to offend, as I said in my earlier post) that this news wasn't anything new and the results of the loss of vote by 1 wasn't such a revelation.

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

It seems that every now and then I am fighting a losing battle when it comes to expressing my thoughts and ideas because my somewhat heated nature of debating a topic is often interpreted as hostile or overly agressive. This way of speaking may work better in a forum (whether in person or online) where people are more used to heated political or social debates debates, but tends to offend in a forum like this one.

Well these forums are originally a gaming forum not a political one, so yeah, maybe some of us aren't used to or prepared to handle comments that work better in a political setting. I, for one, have never been to a political forum or gotten caught in a political debate nor do I want to because I am not so politically aggressive.

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I apologize if you felt personally attacked, but I was just expressing my views. I did this by targeting it towards a specific audience, which would be anybody I felt is too comfortable with the fact this issue is going on. That is my opinion. Not fact. Because it is only my opinion, I don't think you should have to feel personally insulted by what I said. I was not saying that you personally would be ok with infractions upon the first amendment. I was only referring to what I feel is the larger issue at hand.

Well if you are so accepting of opinions then you wouldn't respond to Infernal's post with "Only in America would somebody not look at the numbers and not care what it meant." Infernal not seeing the big deal of the 1 vote is still his opinion/views...he doesn't see the big deal, that's his opinion. You personally are so infuriated by this outcome but I don't see Infernal replying "Why are you getting so hellbent over this? Are you an all-America lover and you love the government that much?" He wasn't stamping on your opinions or how you felt.

And later you say "But then again, maybe you are for such a thing. Maybe you are for infringing upon the 1st Amendment." I don't believe Infernal declared this or gave any impression that he is totally for people to step all over the First Amendment. Maybe he just feels that there are other bigger problems for the Senate to handle other than this issue. And, IMO, I can't help but feel this problem is just an excuse for the Senate not to take care of the other important issues at hand. It's like they're coming up with stupid little things to keep the US minds off of what really matters. I mean, it's even possible that the 1 vote thing was fixed in order to get people talking about "how close" it was and make a big deal out of it. Maybe this is jumping to extremes, but everything is like a big drama reality show now, so it wouldn't surprise me.

EDIT: By the way, RobHardo, how...did...you get so much Gils? I didn't even think numbers went that high. j/k

[Redpyramidhead]

No offense, but you pretty much just restated everything I just said anyway. I am beginning to worry that people just don't understand me like I am speaking a different language. I am not even really sure what is going on here. Somebody tell me I am not losing my mind and that what I have said makes sense. I am serious. Did I not already apologize for the way I spoke to Infernal? I have had a longer day than any of you can imagine and more than one dear friends of mine have had even longer days.
The rest of you can continue with the topic for this thread if you want, but I am done.

_RED_ stuff

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

No offense, but you pretty much just restated everything I just said anyway.

Argh! Excuse me man, but I had just restated everything you said? I don't see how I restated everything you said when my post shows the contradictions in your third post. That's not really restating. But you know what? Forget it...I'm clearly and obviously an extremely retarded person to always get mixed up in these things where nothing is resolved in the end and the same thing always gets rehashed...if it's not the subject of the flag, it's going to be something else. Rinse and repeat. So I'm done too. I'm tired.

[Redpyramidhead]

Originally Posted by merylsilverburg

Argh! Excuse me man, but I had just restated everything you said? I don't see how I restated everything you said when my post shows the contradictions in your third post. That's not really restating. But you know what? Forget it...I'm clearly and obviously an extremely retarded person to always get mixed up in these things where nothing is resolved in the end and the same thing always gets rehashed...if it's not the subject of the flag, it's going to be something else. Rinse and repeat. So I'm done too. I'm tired.

Yikes.

Im sorry Meryl. I genuinely am.

We are silly ppl who need sleep

rest well friend

PEACE


_RED_ stuff

[Hylas]

Flags as symbols are useless. They usually promote the worst and the most conservative values of a country.