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[merylsilverburg]

Sorry if the title scared anyone or sounded threatening because it's not in reference to anyone on here. It's actually from this article which, IMO, is probably the best article I've read in a long time.

After reading it, how many people agree with it? I know there are some children lovers or people who have children on here, so I just wanted to hear your thoughts.

I, personally, think this guy is fantastic...so many businesses are afraid to set rules about noisy, buggerful children (because in business minds, we feel everyone has a right to enter any place, including children since we assume they are supposed to be angelic cherubs *snorts in utter disgust*). He wasn't afraid to take a stand and set some rules for his business whom he personally owns and runs so why not, right? And I mean, why not? Why shouldn't all businesses do this? I mean, MY GOD, do you guys have any idea how friggin' annoying it is to have noisy, irritating children run around a place where, oh gee, the parents are just sitting there being complete lazy potatoes and not restraining them? And a cafe is nothing! Sure, it's got hot coffees and teas and whatnot, but I'm talking about restaurant business. That place I used to work at for 8 years...there used to be loud, danger-prone, running, scrambling children all around...and I used to have to swerve and avoid them like the plague because I'm carrying hot and heavy dishes, entrees, and whatnot and if I happen to spill a drop of it on them (which I didn't, what a miracle), their parents would be all over my ass and screaming at how clumsy I am when they're the ones not watching over their kids!! And think about it, you guys...if let's say this guy at this cafe didn't set out these rules, imagine if a waitress or waiter happen to spill a coffee on one of the running kids...the parents would be suing the place and getting that waiter/waitress fired for being "irresponsible and clumsy and lacking the proper work-skills"! I cannot believe some of those retard parents in the article are getting angry at this guy...maybe because his rules states the obvious that the parents are horrible at being parents.

[happy_doughnut]

I thought you were going to start banning everyone. I was scared.

Anyway, great article. Thanks for sharing . . . it really is one of the best news articles I've read in a good while.

And I totally agree. Hardly anything pisses me off more than stupid parents that don't know how to take care of their stupid kids. "Oh, they're just kids," they say. So?! What's your point, stupid? Kid or not, if they run around like wild bulls, they are going to get hurt--and even more so because they ARE kids! Hello!

I hate it. I swear.

"Sometimes, there’s no controlling them.”--Some retarded parent in the article.

That's just plain BS. You don't have to "control" anyone--you just have to be a good parents and instill the seemingly overly complex idea of good behavior in them. That's not control--it's discipline, and they are not the same thing.

“Children don’t need to be allowed to run wild and free, but they do need to be allowed to express themselves.”--Some retarded teacher in the article.

Yes. Yes to the former, and yes to the latter. Children should be able and allowed to express themselves; they are in the earliest of stages that will develop their own unique personality. That's why you should spend time with your kid--to let them express themselves in good, safe, non-destructive ways. I'm sorry but running around like confused chicken irregardless of who or what is infront of them, jumping on everything in sight, and putting their dirty hands and feet on every palpable thing is not "expressing themselves." It's just a kid that needs a good spanking. Why are these two things so hard to discern?

Omg. I must stop before I go on a full-blown rant about why some people need to be castrated. Stupid idiot-parents.

[Berserker]

Fully agreed! Some guy in Holland banned children from his restaurant, because he stated "people pay good money to enjoy their meal, in a quiet peaceful surrounding"(or something like that). People started to brand him as a fascist, but fact of the matter is the place was packed everynight from then on. So a lot of people agreed. I hate parents who are just laughing at the children being annoying not because they think it's funny but they are to weak-ass to do something about it.

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Berserker

Fully agreed! Some guy in Holland banned children from his restaurant, because he stated "people pay good money to enjoy their meal, in a quiet peaceful surrounding"(or something like that). People started to brand him as a fascist, but fact of the matter is the place was packed everynight from then on. So a lot of people agreed.

Good for that guy! That oughta show those parents calling him fascist.

Originally Posted by Beserker

I hate parents who are just laughing at the children being annoying not because they think it's funny but they are to weak-ass to do something about it.

But you know, sadly, there are some parents who actually do laugh at children when they're acting annoying because they think it's "cute" or "adorable" or "funny." It's sickening.

Originally Posted by happy_doughnut

That's why you should spend time with your kid--to let them express themselves in good, safe, non-destructive ways. I'm sorry but running around like confused chicken irregardless of who or what is infront of them, jumping on everything in sight, and putting their dirty hands and feet on every palpable thing is not "expressing themselves." It's just a kid that needs a good spanking. Why are these two things so hard to discern?

Yes, as you said, kids should be allowed to express themselves, but not when they're being a hazard and/or nuisance to others. And parents really ought to see this and discipline them. Here's a good example: again, at the restaurant where I worked before, a lot of the parents that came in just let their kids exhaust their energy by allowing them to create little works of "art" using the wooden chopsticks we set out (I worked in a Chinese restaurant). You guys wouldn't believe how much broken, split, and unused chopsticks were scattered all around the tables and floors by the time they were done. Not only was it a pain in the butt to clean, but we wasted a lot of chopsticks and our food cost became higher as a result!! I get so mad thinking about those days.

[Pu the Owl]

Expressing yourself is a thing, lacking any respect or discipline is another. Who says that a kid can express himself being a pain for other persons? I disagree that kids should be free to act as they wish in any circumstances. Kids that have been raised in full respect of others can freely express themselves without being a bother. I know of kids who are very respectful and wouldn't do anything annoying. They're also very creative, smart and lively. These two aspects can coexist. I also know of kids who are nothing but barbarians unable to speak without shouting or unable to move a finger without creating a mess. Some of these brats even find a subtle pleasure from the fact of annoying others. Even worse, some of them intentionally act like that because they find enjoyable the fact of seeing others depend on their actions (especially having these actions negative impact). The problem is parents aren't objective. Of course there are cases of terribly strict parents, but most of them are too indulgent and prefer to laugh and repeat the old "after all it's only children" motto when their brats do something wrong. Parents can say whatever they want, but when a kid is rude or ill-mannered it's 90% their fault. It's easier to be "friend" of your kid letting him be free to do whatever he wants than being a "parent" who tries to teach what is good or convenient in certain situations. At home it's their problem, but since a kid, yes, can't tell the difference between acting in a certain way at home or in public, parents who doesn't care or do nothing about it are the first ones to lack any respect towards others. Thus they should be the first ones to be invited to stay away from public places, along with their brats.

[Redpyramidhead]

OK, first of all, I agree that parents should step up and take some responsibility for their kids actions. I, myself, can't really stand it when I am sitting down in what is supposed to be a relatively quiet place where good mannered people are supposed to be able to chill and enjoy themselves when some noisy and obnoxious kids are running about doing whatever they want while their parents merely smile and nod or even completely ignore them. That is one extreme and extremes in a lot of cases are bad.

The other extreme, though, would be to ban children from your establishment altogether or to make parents who have no choice but to bring children with them feel more than their fair share unwanted or that they have no place to go. I DO NOT see why in the original article, parents became upset at a simple sign with a very simple request on it, BUT I CAN see why parents who actually do put in the effort to try and control their children and a lot of the time to no avail, might be frustrated. Not all parents have enough money for babysitters 24/7. You simply can't go out of your way to make parents feel unwelcome with their children in every possible public place you can imagine. Kids exist. It makes sense to keep children out of some places, but in others we're just going to have to deal with them. None of us are parents here, so we can't really imagine what its like to try and keep kids under control. Some of these parents are atleast just as frustrated as we are and I am sure much more embarrassed.

And btw, to this day, I play with chopsticks when I go to chinese restaurants... adults can be just as annoying

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[happy_doughnut]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I DO NOT see why in the original article, parents became upset at a simple sign with a very simple request on it, BUT I CAN see why parents who actually do put in the effort to try and control their children and a lot of the time to no avail, might be frustrated. Not all parents have enough money for babysitters 24/7.

I disagree simply because if parents really made an effort to discipline, not control, their children, then their children would be well-behaved, and neither parent nor child would have to worry about this. If parents really tried to discipline, then they would avail.

A child, unless medical problems are involved, will only go as far as the parent will let them. Any further than that shows they didn't place a boundry line that was to be respected.

It makes sense to keep children out of some places, but in others we're just going to have to deal with them.

I disagree again. I should not have to deal with ill-behaving children that are not blood related to me. I should not have to because I am not their parent--they are not my responsibility. Their parents are responsible for them and should keep them in-line, so that third parties need not be affected.

None of us are parents here, so we can't really imagine what its like to try and keep kids under control.

For one, you don't need to be a parent to experience the fun-ness of keeping a child in-line; it is aggravating and chaotic and much more than what these two adjectives encompass. Secondly, objectivity is best sometimes. And thirdly, there just is no excuse for these bad parents.

And btw, to this day, I play with chopsticks when I go to chinese restaurants...

Playing with chopsticks in Asian restaurants [or any other place where they are administered] is not only annoying, but rude and disrespectful to the culture. They do not set them there so silly us can use them for our own amusement--they are set there so that we may use them as eating utensils, since that's precisely what they are, if we can want to.

You don't see people trying to break forks and spoons, do you? If you did, you would think they were insane. I guess the same doesn't apply to foreign utensils.

This honestly pisses me off more than you can imagine. I myself don't know how to use chopsticks because no one ever taught me. I tried to learn on my own, but I just wasn't able to. When I go to Chinese or Japanese restaurants, they always have them there [obviously]. But, since I don't know how to use them, I use the forks, spoons, knives, and so on that they have conveniently placed on the table alongside the chopsticks. I'm neither going to make a fool of myself, pretending I can use them when I can't, nor going to be disrespectful and ridiculous.

If anything, we should appreciate that they have the hospitality and sensitivity to place the other utensils there for us to use, instead of automatically assuming that because we like Chinese food and are in a Chinese food restaurant, we thus must also be able to eat with chopsticks.

And I can go on and on about why this pisses me off so much.

. . . adults can be just as annoying

Sometimes even moreso than the children themselves.

[Redpyramidhead]

I do not feel that my playing with chopsticks is in any way offensive to any culture in particular as I also make it a point to play with forks, knives, and spoons as well. I guess people are looking at me like I'm insane then. Well, rightfully so, then. I AM insane. I always leave a generous tip, though, so I feel justified at the end of my day.


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[Pu the Owl]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I do not feel that my playing with chopsticks is in any way offensive to any culture in particular as I also make it a point to play with forks, knives, and spoons as well. I guess people are looking at me like I'm insane then. Well, rightfully so, then. I AM insane. I always leave a generous tip, though, so I feel justified at the end of my day.

Sorry this is off topic, but I don't think restaurants staff appreciate much a tip when it comes from somebody who makes a mess all around the table and creates additional unnecessary work. I doubt you can make a waiter happy with your tip when he has to go home 2 hours later than he was expecting because you or people like you had fun with spoons, chopsticks, food and so on. Plus, a tip for justifiyng bad manners? Does it make any sense? Bad manners in public places are offensive whatever the culture we are talking about, especially towards people who are in a public place to work. You sort of have fun exploiting their work and wasting their time

[Redpyramidhead]

Originally Posted by Panuru

Sorry this is off topic, but I don't think restaurants staff appreciate much a tip when it comes from somebody who makes a mess all around the table and creates additional unnecessary work. I doubt you can make a waiter happy with your tip when he has to go home 2 hours later than he was expecting because you or people like you had fun with spoons, chopsticks, food and so on. Plus, a tip for justifiyng bad manners? Does it make any sense? Bad manners in public places are offensive whatever the culture we are talking about, especially towards people who are in a public place to work. You sort of have fun exploiting their work and wasting their time

I do NOT leave a mess when I eat at restaurants. I always clean up after myself so as NOT to create unnecessary work for them and I certainly would NOT have fun exploiting their work for my own juvenile purposes because I do NOT believe in making other people's lives miserable at an already difficult job. Also, I think that the fact that when I tip a waiter or waitress I take into account that they need the money they work so hard to earn and try to be as generous as I can depending on the amount of money I have on me... well I think I do my part. I am pretty sure I am not a huge nuisance when I go out to eat, even with the occasional drumming lightly with the chopsticks, etc. Now I wish you had realized that I was trying to be funny earlier, so I wouldnt have to explain myself.


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[Pu the Owl]

Yours was a rather pseudo-ironical comment made just to reply to Mena's good points regarding your first post. And it wasn't really funny IMO. And anyway... restaurants are made to go to eat,chat and relax. They're not playgrounds. Chopsticks or not, mess or not, trying to be funny acting like that (playing with whatever is on your table) in such places could be annoying for the waiters and other customers. I'm not there to judge, I can only comment according to what you posted: the fact your table is not like a a little Hiroshima after the bomb doesn't necessarily mean you're being well-mannered.

[Redpyramidhead]

Look, mena and i are friends. She knows I am just teasing her. Atleast, I would hope so. I am not trying to make anybody really upset here or anywhere. I admire your adamant stance on being respectful to others and I almost completely agree, but life is too short to worry about stepping on other people's toes 24/7 until one can't breathe anymore. That was my original point. I still don't think there is anything wrong with my manners and I think most would agree for the most part if they met me in person, but I don't think its worth going on about about this at this point. I am not trying to start an argument... so everybody just forget I posted anything.

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[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I DO NOT see why in the original article, parents became upset at a simple sign with a very simple request on it, BUT I CAN see why parents who actually do put in the effort to try and control their children and a lot of the time to no avail, might be frustrated.

Uh...well if the parents actually do discipline their kids and their kids act proper and respectful, then why would the parents get so upset then? These parents with such great kids wouldn't and shouldn't get so angry at a sign like that if their kids act well-behaved anyway, am I right?

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I do not feel that my playing with chopsticks is in any way offensive to any culture in particular as I also make it a point to play with forks, knives, and spoons as well.

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I am pretty sure I am not a huge nuisance when I go out to eat, even with the occasional drumming lightly with the chopsticks, etc. Now I wish you had realized that I was trying to be funny earlier, so I wouldnt have to explain myself.

Ooh, so not only do you play and "lightly drum" chopsticks when you dine, but you also play with your forks and knives and spoons too? Oh wow! That completely justifies the fact that you're being one of those really irritating customers that I just absolutely love!

Look, I don't care if you play with your forks or spoons or chopsticks or whatever...doing so is just plain annoying and this behavior really burns me up. And guess what? The whole "drumming lightly on the table with the chopsticks" thing is the one thing, out of all the stupid things customers do, that drives me f*cking crazy, alright? Not only have I seen this stupid retarded behavior everytime ever since I was, oh, ten years old and it hits a nerve everytime I see and hear it, but it's also just rude to me (both in the behavioral sense and culture sense). And if you said this to be "funny", well, like Panuru said, I don't find it very funny. It's annoying. It's rude. It's irritating. It's immature as hell. And you know what? If you were to come into the restaurant and do that, I would've put you on my "Hated Customers" list straight off the bat.

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

and I certainly would NOT have fun exploiting their work for my own juvenile purposes because I do NOT believe in making other people's lives miserable at an already difficult job.

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I admire your adamant stance on being respectful to others and I almost completely agree, but life is too short to worry about stepping on other people's toes 24/7 until one can't breathe anymore.

But wait, aren't you being contradictory? You say you try and do not make a mess when you eat so as not to make waiters and waitresses' lives miserable or more difficult, but then you say "life is too short to worry about stepping on other people's toes 24/7." Well then, why do you even bother trying to be "concerned" about waiter/waitresses' well-being? Why don't you just make a mess and do whatever you like if you think it's not worth worrying about other's irks and pet-peeves? Oh wait, you already do...you drum your chopsticks on the table.

EDIT: In my rage, I've forgotten to thank Mena and Panuru for your excellent comments and thoughts and your consideration for those in the restaurant business as well as other customers. I agree with everything you guys said so I feel no need to repeat what you both have articulately stated.

[Hylas]

I hate those parents who can't look after their kids! Some kids need spanking, but they're too weak or simply don't care! Idiots!

When I am somewhere (bars, restaurants etc.) all I want is to be there just to have a good time, but with noisy kids arouns it is impossible! Ill-mannered adults are annoying as well! I'd hate being a waitress for the same reasons meryl explained

[Redpyramidhead]

All right, y'all need to chill the FUCK OUT! SERIOUSLY! This all started with me trying to be humorous, but you're all too goddamn sensitive and hate other human beings so much that you not only cheer on this misanthropic hatefest of a thread and you flip out when somebody disagrees. You know what? Maybe it is NOT normal to be angry at people all day over stupid petty shit... I am sorry that "people like me" ruin everybody's lives and make them so unbearable... jesus fucking christ...


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[Redpyramidhead]

OK... maybe I overreacted earlier... my apologies. I haven't been out all weekend. Maybe that's my problem.

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[DSgamer]

word nigga.

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

This all started with me trying to be humorous, but you're all too goddamn sensitive and hate other human beings so much that you not only cheer on this misanthropic hatefest of a thread and you flip out when somebody disagrees.

Okay first off, don't go off and blame the thread just because you're feeling "attacked" and accusing the thread as being a "hatefest"...I think you would recall my question to the topic:

Originally Posted by merylsilverburg

After reading it, how many people agree with it?

Oh I'm so sorry for asking such an "subjective" question, I guess my saying "how many people agree with it" is some sort of brainwashing scheme of mine to make everyone agree with me.

This thread was not meant to be a "hatefest" nor was it wrong for anyone to disagree. No one had a problem with what you said regarding the topic; both happy_doughnut and Panuru were responding with their own views to what you disagreed with. It's called "discussion" in case you didn't know.

It was only when you mentioned the fact that you "play with chopsticks" was when things started to get ugly. Sure, maybe you were saying it to be humorous, but you cannot dare to accuse other people of being "too sensitive" and "people hating" or think that people wouldn't respond to such a comment when and if we feel that playing with chopsticks or other eating utensils is disrespectful or rude to the culture! And yes, maybe you don't feel like it's being disrespectful, but you have to at least take into consideration that this sort of behavior is rude to others especially if we're from those countries that do use chopsticks. But hey, feel free to continue doing whatever you'd like with chopsticks because we can't and won't stop you (doesn't mean that I, for one, like it though), but we're just simply expressing our reasons for why we find it so vulgar.

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

You know what? Maybe it is NOT normal to be angry at people all day over stupid petty shit...

True, perhaps it's stupid to be angry or enraged over a small thing like this, but what if it's a big thing for some of us? Are you going to hold it against us if that's the case? So if I see some retard Asian who should and does know that sticking chopsticks upright in a bowl of rice is extremely improper but does it anyway, should I not get angry at the sheer stupidity of this person? Just because it's not a huge deal to him means I can't be infuriated?

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

OK... maybe I overreacted earlier... my apologies. I haven't been out all weekend. Maybe that's my problem.

Oh no, poor you...you haven't been out all weekend...so that completely justifies your pissy and immature behavior just because you felt attacked by the people on this thread? Sorry, but that's no excuse.

If you have a problem with what I said above, Redpyramidhead, just PM me. To an Administrator or Moderator: Please lock this thread...unfortunately it seems we can't discuss things like adults anymore.

[Beretta55]

I agree with the article. There is nothing wrong with children expressing themselves, but running around the room, bothering other customers and just making an ass out of themselves is not "expressive" it's just some little kid acting like an idiot hopped up on speed. Still being a teenager I act my best in a restaurant, I don't play with my food, talk loudly or whatever I sit there and eat my food. Because I was RAISED to be courteous of other people, it may be a difficult concept for a six year old child to understand but parents should instill that kind of discipline at an early age otherwise the child will continue to grow up that way and maybe never grow out of it. I don't know if it's just my luck but I hate kids that look over your seat (the kind of cushioned adjoining seats in a row where people can sit behind you or in front of you in another section) and just act SO damn annoying you want to punch them in the nose. It's like a kid kicking the back of your seat in a movie theater, but now with annoying voice to add insult to injury. But I don't experience alot of this since I don't go out to eat as much, I prefer a home cooked meal myself. That's why I also believe waiters/waitresses should be treated with respect. The vast majority of them are more then likely not giddy about their job since it's a thankless one and have to put up with things. Lazy parents who have their kids run around acting like brats does not make it any easier, parents should automatically know when their kid is acting like that, make them stop. You don't have to get excessive force into it, but a deep commanding voice and serious look could go a long way to plow their asses back into their seat.

I also don't see why some people were angry about it, he isn't saying NO KIDS PERIOD! He is just pointing out what should be painfully obvious to a parent. Console your kid this is a public place that other people come too, not your home. A restaurant, cafe, fast food place etc. Is not your children’s bedroom where they can run around and act all crazy. I know this is off topic but I seriously hate it when I get a kid behind me in a movie theater that constantly keeps talking OR KICKS MY FREAKING SEAT and the parent does nothing about it. I mostly stay quiet and watch the movie since the parent might wig out when I point out their child is acting up. OH NOES!! BUT MY CHILD IS AN ANGEL! HE CAN DO NO WRONG EVER!! But that’s the thing, you see the worst children in public places it seems when there are alot of good kids out there, but the worst always seem to sit behind you in a restaurant and act that way, such is the way of life I guess.

But the kind of kids that anger me more then anything are the kind that freak out and throw temper tantrums in public places. I mostly see it in retail stores like blockbuster or wal-mart where the kid starts making a big scene because he won't get to rent something or get some little toy because he already has so much to play with already. They start freaking out in front of everyone in the store, whining, crying, yelling and making a big scene and thus embarrassing the hell out of the parent and pissing off everyone else. It angers me beyond anything else. It's why I'm glad I mostly visit blockbuster at night, you see very little of those kind of children at that time.