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[JC Denton]

i couold have named this post anything

the other day i saw something that frankly insulted me.

i saw an american women in germany wearing a t-shirt: that said,

opertation fredom,
wiping terror from the world.

now for a start , i dont mind wars, if they are balanced, in war there is no good vs evil, and she may have been hurt or shocked by setember the 11, but does she have the right to boast that her contry have been bombing another country, which is not a fair fight, and have not done what the t-shirt says because terrorism is'nt a group of people it is an act which ANY person can take part in.

she did not take part in the war,
it was a hollow victory anyway yet she is boasting about it.

think how you wouold feel if walking along the street you saw a man/women wearing a t-shirt that had the picture of the two towers destroyed saying.
operation suicide,
trying to destroy america,

would you like it,
i am trying to make several points,
they are
one that everyone likes victorys, but america has attacked another country without a chance of being hurt, bullying, that country is not to blame for that act,
if america wants to know why people are having to reaort to these acts they must look at their foreign policy.
the other is we cannot boast over things we have not done, this works with anything,
like "yes my team beat yours 3-0"
did you have any affect over the game?
did you take part?
is it "your team"?
the answert to this is no.

the final point is this, when people get to powerful they do things just because they can, look at the english empire we invaded other countroies and forced our relign on them not because we needed to but becasue we can.
america is attacking other becasue it can
look at a number of their wars,
i just feel ashamed that britain is taking up the role as cowardly friend to bully thta doesn't do anything that just points and calls names.

now it must also be pointed out that it ios natural to hate powers greater than your own,

by argument may be crude but these points need to be brought across, we cant boast that we defeated evil when good and evil do not exist in this conflict, and america should not stick its nose into to many other countries business it will only pick up enimes.
and it must not become a bully, no countryis invinsible, again look at nazi germany look at the british empire, the romans, the greeks, the aztecs, the list could go on for ages.

thank you,
and please don't take offence.

[Infernal Mass]

2800 American civilians were killed on Sept. 11th. Doing nothing more than providing for themselves and their families. They never had a chance..or the opportunity to fight for their lives.

that is evil.

[kupoartist]

all that from a t-shirt hmm?
I have to agree with some of what you said. I do believe in "reasonable" force, something which wasn't always evident in the campiagn - this is Afghanistan we're talking about. Blitzing them isn't really necessary. Also, what could we possibly achieve from an attack on such a place, on terroists mostly underground and in hiding?

I certainly agree with the T-Shirt thing. War is a necessary thing - but not a thing that should ever be celebrated... and claiming such a victory (though a necessary victory) as a brilliant one, is akin to me being celebrated for punching a five year-old girl in the face...

But I certainly disagree on others. There is good and evil in this battle... ok maybe some of the actions are unsavory by the alledged "good" side - But what the other side did was fly two aircraft, with innocent people inside, into two buildings full of thousands upon thousands of innocent civillians. People that these terroists had never even met, were killed for an example... That defines evil better than anything i've ever seen.

Perhaps those in charge are aiming slightly broader than the target of "war on terrorism" - but don't loose sight of the fact that this is evil we're combatting, and that the side of "good" hasn't gone as far as intentionally attacking civillians - the targets have been Terrorists... There are of course those that buy into the "fight against evil" that are really there for a piece of the pie - The trouble in the middle east, as israel needlessly seem to try to appease America is a good example, the Indians growling at the Pakistanis is another.

I wish we could live in a world of peace, but we seem naturally disposed to fighting - in this world, "evil" will always fight whether "good" decides to fight also or to try to go on regardless... if in some way, fighting will delay the attacks of "evil"... then it is sadly the only way (unless we make all governments elect females as leaders )

[JC Denton]

the point i am trying to make is that to you and me to a certain extent what they did seems evil. but to their freinds and country what they did was heroic, just as american soliders are seen as brave and fighting for the good fight, to them they are evil people destroying their country. Nothing in life is that simple i am afraid.

one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

and i could say that what the americans did in vietnam was
evil when they were supposed to be fighting the good fight
it depends what angle you are viewing the situation on,
you cant be so naieve, step back and look at the whole picture.

but its pointless argueing about it i dont take either side i agree what happend was wrong, but as you feel blowing their country to bits is necsseary then im sure they felt their attack was inicent.

if you want revenge hit the people that really matter, not people who happen to be in the same county as them.

i merely wanted to provide a different opinion on what has happend not to start an arguement,

k...
everyone calm, be happy and watch DBZ

[Frozen]

Originally posted by JC Denton

...and america should not stick its nose into to many other countries business it will only pick up enimes.

That's the problem with this country's goverment. they believe they are the World's Police Department. So they stick their noses wherever they can. An that's why they have picked up so many enemies. Usually they say they are "helping" such country, or whatever. But they never "help". They only make "businesses". Wheneverthey help, believe me, there's always something they'l get from that. Otherwise they wouldn't mind about nay other country.

The Sept. 11 thing was just abominable, and unforgivable. All the innocent who were involved, had absolutely no guilt about it, and did not deserve that to happen to them. But the US goverment aske for it to happen. The talibans didn't do it just because they wanted to kill people. SOMTHING gave them powerful reasons. And that SOMETHING was the US goverment. It's in the facts if you watch the news and all that.

In any case, and I may neglect what you said, I MIND WARS, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE, AND THEY SHOULD NOT EVER EXIST. NO WAR IS BALANCED. THERE IS NO WINNERS. ONLY LOSERS INVOLVED. WAR IS STUPIDITY AT ONE IT'S MOST ABSURD, LOWEST LEVELS.

[JC Denton]

well said,

and i sort of agree with what you said about war, its true there are no winners, but unfortunatley fighting is part of us, it keeps us alive and to be honest it does stop bitter hatred between countries sometimes, but i must say world peace would be nice if unachievable. unfortunatly fighting has changed for the worse now in a war thousands die to settles petty disputs, but it wasn't always like this, i agree mass invasions are wrong in which millions of inocent people will die.
but the idea isn't wrong, fighting on the right scale can solve problems,

whats wrong with a civilised deul from time to time. (j/k)

hurting for the sake of hurting is most DEFINATELY wrong though.

everyones entitled to there own opinion,

[Frozen]

Fights of any kind are stupid. Wars are the most retarded of them all. No fight has a good cause. If you think about it, even those which "have a good cause" have been even started from something idiotic.

But of course, that is how this world is. Thati s human nature. But then that's my point. That we humans are absolutely STUPID. And our stupidity is what is going to destroy all of us sooner or later. This world will not last for much longer.

[JC Denton]

i agree, we will end up desroying ourselves, we dont work well in large groups of people, we have never lived harmoniesly(spelling) with people and probably never will. we are a selfish race and we have to be to survive,

and i dont think it will be long before we destroy ourselves,

still i cant agree that all fighting is wrong, why have all the animals on the planet evolved to do it if it is pointless, the fact is it must have a point, but only in the right circumstances.

just one question, do you agree in self defense?

[MakgSnake]

Originally posted by DigiMortal
2800 American civilians were killed on Sept. 11th. Doing nothing more than providing for themselves and their families. They never had a chance..or the opportunity to fight for their lives.

that is evil.

I Agree They Were Innocent......Noone Said They WERE NOT Innocent, But JUST To Remind U, There ARE PEOPLE OUTSIDE Freaking AMERICA Who Are INNOCENT Too. People Who Lived In Hiroshima, People Who Lived In Vietnam, People Who Lived In Afghanistan. ......... They Are Humans Too.

I Totally Agree With Frozen And JC. ................ America Has To MIND Their Own Business. And This Is NOT The First Time Anyone Would Be Hearing This. Almost EVERY Body SAYS IT OUT LOUD To America "Leave Our F*cking Country"...... Why Cant They Freaking HEAR What OTHERS Have To Say. ALL They SAY Is "We Are Just Helping, We Are Just Trying To Help". NO America, We DONT Need Your HELP THANK U VERY MUCH!.!

Does ANYONE Know How Osama-Bin-Laden Was Created And Made?.... It Was The America Who GAVE Birth To HIM. Because He Left His Family To Save The Afghanis, And HAD All The MONEY To Support Them And FIGHT Against The Russians. During That TIME Russians Were The BAD People.... And Afghanis Were NICE People (TALIBANS) Included. America CAME IN... Gave All The Weaponary To The Afghanis TO FIGHT Against The Russians (Cause DURING THAT TIME, America Wanted Russia To Collapse In Each And Every Way).

So Yeah, Osama Was Given The Training And Taught Everything. And AFTER TEN Years When RUSSIANS Left Afghanistan, All Osama Said To The American Army Was "Thank U Very Much For Helping, But U Can Leave Our Country Now As Well"........ WHICH The AMERICANS Didn't Like. ..... And They Called HIM As A Terrorist. How Stupid Can That Be?.?

I Mean IT Makes SENSE, If A Theif COMES In Ure HOUSE, U Would CALL The COPS. And Just Imagine If After Saving U From The THEIF The Cops Say "Yeah Now We Would Like To Stay IN Your House Forever".. U Would Act The Same Way... "No, Thank U, U Can LEAVE Now".

Neways.........But All This Doesn't Mean That I Am In Favours With Osama, I Hate That Prick. ......... And There Are OTHER Reason To HATE HIM TOO!.!

As For Sept11, Whatever Happened Was Bad And Tragic, But Do WE "REALLY" Know Who Actually Did The ATTACK!.!?.?

[Hylas]

just one question, do you agree in self defense?

I think self defense is necessary in some cases, but with nobody attacking, also self defense would be unnecessary. Selfe defense is necessary only because they're someone who's attacking and someone else who's attacked.
I completely agree with Frozen's posts. I would't be able to say it better.

[JC Denton]

what do you mean by attacking?
does this spread to verbal abuse?
does it spread to thinking bad thoughts about people?
hating people?
menatl attacks, such as ignoring or pestering?
degrading them?
to what extreme do you take it?

or is it just physical attacks, if so, and you were being bullied verbaly for a long time

and dont say insults dont hurt because im sure they can.

would you not stand up to them?


i mean i quite agree with 99 percent of what you are saying, but that other one percent is quite crucial. basicly i agree peace would be nice, but at the end of the day it could never be reached. and i mean that.

if we cant agree lets agree to differ.

BTW i dont like arguing, though it is necessary many times, as i dont like being trampled over either.

[Hylas]

I was meaning all kind of attacks, from mental to physical, as I was meaning all kind of self defence. Considering only physical attack as a form of violence is completely wrong IMO.

[Frozen]

Of course I agree on self defense. No one has a right to come and punish me. SO I'll beat them up if that happens. However, my point is, that the first offense should not even exist, on a first place. That is why I say that ANY SINGLE FIGHT IS STUPID. Because it's origins come from a first offense. That first offense is stupid. Thus, the fight is stupid.

And I guess I'm repeating Hylas' post, just in other words

About what Makg said, he's right on everything he said, from my point of view. It's ridicolous the fact that Osama was trained by the CiIA itslef once. But oh well, that's how it happens....... as for Osama being guilty, let's remember that he made several televised threats to the US. Said that no one in the country, citizen or not, could not feel safe any longer in there. So, even if it is still uncertain, it would not be sruprising that he was the one behind such act. After all, the way they made it was in their fashion. fighting in the name of Alah, killing infidels. And being heroes while dying on doing the thing.

EDIT: And I'm also talking about any kind of offense. Not only physical. All of them are equally stupid.

[kupoartist]

Originally posted by MakgSnake


Does ANYONE Know How Osama-Bin-Laden Was Created And Made?.... It Was The America Who GAVE Birth To HIM. Because He Left His Family To Save The Afghanis, And HAD All The MONEY To Support Them And FIGHT Against The Russians. During That TIME Russians Were The BAD People.... And Afghanis Were NICE People (TALIBANS) Included. America CAME IN... Gave All The Weaponary To The Afghanis TO FIGHT Against The Russians (Cause DURING THAT TIME, America Wanted Russia To Collapse In Each And Every Way).

Yeah... the past always repeats with terrible consequences doesn't it. It makes you wonder, is the "west" truely past such things now? are they on the verge of creating yet more problems for themselves

Oh and did America actually blow Afgahanistan to bits though? It was pretty trashed by the time they got there, but to be honest I've really no idea who caused that either. Damn you propaganda! :/

[MakgSnake]

Originally posted by the_artist


Oh and did America actually blow Afgahanistan to bits though? It was pretty trashed by the time they got there, but to be honest I've really no idea who caused that either. Damn you propaganda! :/

Well, Alot Of Afghanistan Was Destroyed In The Cold War With Russia. But Whatever Was Left Was Vanised, Thanks To The US. And Then They Threw FOOD On The Dead Bodies. Thats More Gross Then Ever!.!

[Pu the Owl]

Well, I agree with Frozen's posts and also with some parts of Makg ones. This made me think of a recent theme. Sorry if it's a bit out of topic, but I'll mention it anyway: during this period in Venice, Italy, there's a movie Festival and they presented also a movie made by several different authors from many countries about Sept. 11. The movie is divided into 11 episodes and well, only one of them is talks about the towers disasters. The other episodes are about the point of view of people from Afghanistan (not terrorists, but normal people) and some others about other serious facts happened on Sept. 11, but in other countries (for example South America) and not only in year 2001. Well, they said the movie was obscene because it was anti-american. Only because in it directors tried to analyze the point of view of non-american people. It was said that it would have been better to not show that movie, never. Ok, I repeat, this was kinda off topic, but explanatory of a way of not admitting anything in contrast with some really bad and oppressive propaganda. I do think that sometimes, as artist said, propaganda and a one-sided view of reality is the worst thing when you decide to talk about such topics as war and violence, and I respect US and I'm sure against the ones who caused sufferings to many innocent people, but I also admit sometimes they suffer from this one-sided way of thinking.

[MakgSnake]

A German Guy Saving The World..... Or America?.? LOL!.!

And Fortune I Would Like To See That Movie U Mentioned. Can U Let Me Know Whats The Name Of It!.!?

[Pu the Owl]

The movie is called simply 11’09”01 and the directors of this movie are Samira Makhmalbaf, Claude Lelouch, Youssef Chahine, Danis Tanovic, Idrissa Ouedraogo, Ken Loach, Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu, Amos Gitai, Mira Nair, Sean Penn, Shohei Imamura. As you can see, they're from various nationalities. The only episode about the towers disaster of NY is the one of Sean Penn, I think. Each episode is 11 mins long.

I think some of the people who criticized the movie just couldn't accept the fact that the movie is not about the US and it's not about the WTC terrorists' attack. It's more like a global view and a way to show people every kind of violence and terrorism, directly connected or not with the WTC disaster. It was a way to make people think about the roles of "good people and evil people", and also on the fact that these roles can change if you see the reality with the eys of a different culture or population. But well, thinking this means to be anti-american is plain stupid

[merylsilverburg]

Originally posted by Frozen


That's the problem with this country's goverment. they believe they are the World's Police Department. So they stick their noses wherever they can. An that's why they have picked up so many enemies. Usually they say they are "helping" such country, or whatever. But they never "help". They only make "businesses". Wheneverthey help, believe me, there's always something they'l get from that. Otherwise they wouldn't mind about nay other country.

First off, I would like to thank JC Denton for having the courage to create a thread like this when he knew he could be at risk of flames and negativity. I've had my own opinions about this for sometime, but wasn't sure if I should post since I feared all that I mentioned.

Moving on, Frozen's reply is so true. The US government does feel like they can do whatever they want and are able to "help" any country. However, like Frozen said, if they aren't able to get something out of it, they wouldn't give a damn about any other country.

I agree with mostly everyone who posted. Regarding the Sept. 11 attacks, (maybe off topic) it makes me annoyed (and please, this is just my opinon) to see many Americans feel that Afghanistan and all are just plain terrible because they did such an awful thing. Yes, I agree that it was a horrible incident and all, but last year, when I was in US History, my teacher said that because of this one incident in the past involving Iraq and the US, (something about oil, I forgot... ) and because of what the US did, Iraq is completely pissed at them and have kept it in for this long. So, in a way, I don't blame them for attacking the WTC or the US because it was the US who started it all. It also annoys me to see Americans completely going all out on the whole "peace" and "terrorist" thing ever since Sept. 11. It's like...whenever something bad happens to the US, they become all alert, but when something awful happens to other countries, they don't really care. There were many countries who were constantly at war (and still are) in the past before Sept. 11, but did the US care? No. They just think "Oh, it's their own battle, let them take care of it" but if it's the US, it's like "Oh no...the US has been attacked, everyone care please!". I understand the reasons that other countries don't want the US's help and that's fine and I agree, but if you were to ask any American about a war going on in another country, they'd be like "Huh?". This is not to say that all Americans are bad, but I'm just saying that the US is arrogant. Also, in my American Government class, my teacher gave us this list of "Agree/Disagree" and there were questions on different current issues going on. One of the questions said "Because of terrorist attacks and national security threats, the US should have a more restrictive immigration policy" and when he asked that question, like...the whole class agreed! That made me mad because I'm thinking....it's the US's fault that they weren't being more cautious to begin with. There were many signs before the attack of suspicious people entering flight schools and training and all of that...all at once! Don't you think there was something wrong then? But no....they weren't being cautious and now this incident happens and the US blames and hates all immigrants.

[MakgSnake]

Originally posted by merylsilverburg



I agree with mostly everyone who posted. Regarding the Sept. 11 attacks, (maybe off topic) it makes me annoyed (and please, this is just my opinon) to see many Americans feel that Afghanistan and all are just plain terrible because they did such an awful thing. Yes, I agree that it was a horrible incident and all, but last year, when I was in US History, my teacher said that because of this one incident in the past involving Iraq and the US, (something about oil, I forgot... ) and because of what the US did, Iraq is completely pissed at them and have kept it in for this long. So, in a way, I don't blame them for attacking the WTC or the US because it was the US who started it all. It also annoys me to see Americans completely going all out on the whole "peace" and "terrorist" thing ever since Sept. 11. It's like...whenever something bad happens to the US, they become all alert, but when something awful happens to other countries, they don't really care. There were many countries who were constantly at war (and still are) in the past before Sept. 11, but did the US care? No. They just think "Oh, it's their own battle, let them take care of it" but if it's the US, it's like "Oh no...the US has been attacked, everyone care please!". I understand the reasons that other countries don't want the US's help and that's fine and I agree, but if you were to ask any American about a war going on in another country, they'd be like "Huh?". This is not to say that all Americans are bad, but I'm just saying that the US is arrogant. Also, in my American Government class, my teacher gave us this list of "Agree/Disagree" and there were questions on different current issues going on. One of the questions said "Because of terrorist attacks and national security threats, the US should have a more restrictive immigration policy" and when he asked that question, like...the whole class agreed! That made me mad because I'm thinking....it's the US's fault that they weren't being more cautious to begin with. There were many signs before the attack of suspicious people entering flight schools and training and all of that...all at once! Don't you think there was something wrong then? But no....they weren't being cautious and now this incident happens and the US blames and hates all immigrants.

*CLAPS*..... Well Said Meryl. I Totally Agree With EVERY Single Word U Have Written Down Here!.! This Should Get A Print On WORLD Papers, So That Everybody Can See The REAL Side.

Terrorist Were There Before As Well. Nobody REALLY Cared About It THAT MUCH But Just Cause America Got Attacked. TERRORIST Should Be Washed OUT Completely. Ok GOOD Thing. But Then Again...................I Really Dont Believe That Afghanis Or Arabic People Were Behind The ATTACK. Trust Me GUYS. Theres A BIGGER "WHITER" Hand Behind It!.!