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Nov 26th, 2002, 01:16 PM | #1 |
Carpe Diem Baby!
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Location: Liverpool, UK
Age: 49
Posts: 664
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Where have all the Guitar Heroes gone?
I love rock and metal, I've been listening for over 15 years and love stuff from 70's rock, to 80's hair metal and thrash to newer 'nu-metal'. But there's one thing that really separates the rock/metal of the last couple of years from the earlier stuff...
Guitar solos... And by that, I mean good guitar solo's. In the late 70's you had Jimmy Page, Hendrix, Clapton. In the 80's you had Eddie Van Halen, Joe Satriani, Randy Rhodes. In the early 90's you had Kirk Hammet, Kerry King and Steve Vai. Who do we have in the late 90's/early 00's? No one - there are no more guitar heroes. Most (although not all) newer rock and metal don't even have a guitar solo! As well as being something for a guitarist to show off his skills, a lot of solos were beautifully crafted and added emotion to a song. Others were nothing more than, excuse my french, a fret wank... But still, the guitar solo was a crucial part of any rock/metal song. I miss guitar solos. I miss seeing interviews with guitar gods in magazines. I miss the exuberance and decadence these solos would sometimes exemplify. I blame Kurt Cobain for this. There is no doubt in my mind that he popularised a simpler form of guitar playing. Ever since Nevermind had the success it did, the majority of rock/nu-metal tracks have displayed a simpler form of guitar playing. Kurt Cobain made it okay to simply sweep through chord sequences, rather than playing a riff. I really miss the Guitar Heroes. Does anyone else feel the same? Perhaps some of you see guitar solos as nothing more than a relic of the past. Anyways, I'd love to hear your thoughts whether you agree or not. In the meantime, I'm gonna go and listen to some 80's metal... My Air Guitar is primed and ready to rock! - S
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Nov 26th, 2002, 01:49 PM | #2 |
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I love playing the guitar, but I devoted myself into it in the year 1997. So I havn't got any real background on the best of guitarist.
But my fav guitarists of all time are "Salman Ahmed" and "Amir Zakki"....... they simply rock!! Blows my mind.
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Nov 26th, 2002, 03:05 PM | #3 |
Cursed
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Yeah alot of the greats have left.Its sad not to hear any real captivating leads anymore.We still have some great guitarist out there like richie sambora of bon jovi and kirk hammet of metallica,but yes the just of them are gone.But there are some that will be greats,espically if you look at Mark Tremonti of Creed.The guy is a phemonal solo guitarist.Even though he is the only guitarist in the band (just like page of zepplin) he pulls off great leads.I'm not talking about the stuff on there cd's,its the stuff he does in concert,which is absolutley beautiful and stylish.Truthfully he's the best guitarist i heard overall.Other than that i havent heard anyone else that does a good as a job that he does that is from this generation of music.Hopefully there will be a rise of the guitar heroes again in the future.I'm surely aiming to be one if i make it into the business.
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Nov 26th, 2002, 03:16 PM | #4 |
ys.
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In terms of riffs Kurt Cobain created the best riff ever. Everybody in the world practically knows smells like teen spirit.
Also, songs such as All Apologies and Come as you are have amazingly good riffs. Just because he isn't using anything more than pentatonic scales in his solos doesn't make them any less valid. Grunge was the movement that had to happen to save us from all the poor music of before. Steve Vai plays amazing solos but can you hum anything by him ? All the fret work doesn't make his music anything more than technically impressive. Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins plays amazing lead guitar, he has been called the alternative Eddie Van Halen, but he isn't annoying with it, no pumpkins song has pure fret work. Today you have bands such as dream theatre and the like, technically impressive, but in terms of song structure and pure rawness and feeling fall way behind all the alternative bands. In the same way the 70's punk movement helped move away from the legacy of the beatles, post-punk helped us move away from the poor turgid hair metal of the 80's.
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Nov 26th, 2002, 03:25 PM | #5 |
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All these "old school" solo artists no longer exist you say? Well, it's not completely true. It's just that New styles are born in the meantime and even if you call it a "simpler" style, they at least gave us the possibility to listen to something new and "fresh".
I'll take Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth as an example: his way of playing the guitar is really different from the artists you mentioned, his style is surely newer and nearly impossible to be copied even for the talented solo artists you love so much, and yeah, it's really original and somewhat "experimental" too. Someone said he's the one who invented "Noise Rock", and critics attached this label to this way of playing the guitar. You may not like this style, but you can't say he's unable to play a guitar. There are many clones of the metal hard rock sound and such things, and they're simply boring mostly because they add nothing to what we've already heard. They lack of any kind of originality. Why? Because their main interest is simply to show off their talent and nothing more. They can play, of course, but they don't create anything valuable. Is it so good for you? Don't blame Cobain, please, this is another old cliché: he created his style, while the others copied it without knowing what the style was about. |
Nov 26th, 2002, 04:04 PM | #6 |
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My dear S,
this is probably the only post from the beginning of this forums that made me, well, let's say it, furious. You blame Kurt Cobain for what? Because finally, after years and years of music made of guitar solos that were just there to show how technically good was a band, someone was able to really express his inner self without pretending of being adored as a guitar god. And all this hate towards Cobain of all those hard-rock metal guys are so pointless; if there is one humble personality in the history of rock music that is Cobain. He never wanted to be a mentor, a guide - he felt like he was there by chance, for a strange destiny, in the same spot of the charts where a macho band like Guns'n Roses used to be. Looking back at his songs, after ten years, you can still feel his rage, his love, his loneliness, that loneliness that each of us has inside, the loneliness that made this life terrible and terribly beautiful, but that Van Halen is so unable to express with his memorable solos. If there is a music that stays there, in all its nude sincerity, and that can teach our god-like star system (that affects also the supposedly alternative word of metal bands) something, that is the music of Nirvana. Unique, unrepeatable, pure in its simplicity yet so full of a thing that artists seem to forget: humanity. And saying that Kurt Cobain wasn't a great guitarists is non-sense. He had his unique style, then copied by thousands - he was all in one with his guitar, and he was one of the most impressive noise guitarists of all times. Thurston Moore, also on my opinion the greatest guitarist of our time and one of the most open minded artists in the music industry, was fascinated by Cobain's style, and not by chance. Is it possible that all those songs say nothing to you? Did you actually listen All Apologies, Heart Shaped Box, Something in The Way? Van Hallen? Steve Vai? Joe Satriani (oh, how many memorable songs we all remember of this great artist, I sing them all in my head, every day)? Great guitarists, poor artists. S, you could have said anything about any other guitarists, but you hit Cobain, and that's coward and - can I say that? - ignorant. Thanks Cobain, thanks Nirvana. |
Nov 26th, 2002, 04:27 PM | #7 |
Calculating Infinity
Joined: Jan 2002
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I'm pretty opinionated when it comes to talented guitarist so I'd probably go write a book if I read through all the posts...
I just have to say this... your comment on "nu metal" not having solos and such, it's probabably because KoRn started the nu metal revolution and they are seriously not talented musicians. Many guitarists and musicians could relate to them and liked their simple music so they copied them or did variatians of their music. The only solos they have are crappy wah solos which is pretty much jus using a wah pedal and stretching some strings It's not that solos arent around anymore in in the 90s/00s, it's that the mainstream or popular music dont have many solos, with the exception of a few bands. I listen to a lot of underground, well not really underground but nothing most people have heard of, and there are tons of solos that're very memorible. I suggest listening to Nevermore, Arch Enemy and Soilwork (especially soilwork's song Structure Divine, my favorite solo ever). Also Meshuggah has some pretty trippy, experimental solos (not on their new album but on Destroy, Erase, Improve & Chaosphere there are some pretty kick ass ones). Harry, I know some solos may be rediculously thrown in so the crowd goes, "WHOOOOO!! YOU GUYS ROCK! (holds up fists)." But the guitarists who truly know how to make it work, can make a soulful part that overshadows the rest of the song. On the Kurt Cobain subject, I really don't think Cobain is a talented guitarist. He's a good song writer and has REALLY good guitar parts, but they just arent very special. Smells Like Teen Spirit consits of 2 notes during the verse and a lame barre chord chorus like most of their songs. I'm not saying this is particularly bad by all means, but isnt for me anymore. But it's really a shame that solos aren't as popular anymore Metallica's old work like Ride The Lightening and Master of Puppets amazed me when I started learning to play guitar. And Kerry King rules
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Nov 26th, 2002, 04:48 PM | #8 |
ys.
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harry and fortune, i agree.
bless nirvana and sonic youth for offering us something wonderful in music.
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Nov 26th, 2002, 07:00 PM | #9 | ||||||||||
Carpe Diem Baby!
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Liverpool, UK
Age: 49
Posts: 664
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It would seem my view is somewhat unpopular, however, allow me to counter various points from a few of the replies.
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To say I'm disappointed at some of the comments made would be an understand. I did not realise that posting an opinion that may not be in the majority would be wrong. To be told I know nothing, am ignorant and a coward is frankly disappointing - especially given who voiced those accusations. Is it really so wrong to want that, even if it's just once? Is it so wrong to want a new guitar hero? Note by Harry: Sorry, the forum merged two threads in one, and I tried reconstructing desperately your post going into the database. This should do it.
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Nov 26th, 2002, 07:37 PM | #10 |
ys.
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no post-cobain guitarists are poor. you merely consider them poor.
i equally consider vai and van halen to be poor guitarists because they have no songs that mean a single thing to me.
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Nov 26th, 2002, 08:37 PM | #11 | |||||||
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I wasn't speaking of ignorance in terms of opinions or knowledge. Quote:
Anyhow, accepting that Cobain was a song writer and not a guitarist, this should be one more reason for you to not blame him for the influence he had on guitarists. Again, am I wrong? Quote:
I didn't say you know nothing - I know nothing myself so I can't say that to you. I repeat, I didn't like the tone of your statement. Nirvana's music is so genuine, sincere, that I just can't accept the cynic attack you made. I would have understood if you attacked a band that was dishonest with its fans, but not Nirvana, please. If I was too passionate, forget about it. I guess you noticed I don't post often, and there is a reason I couldn't resist this time. I think you can understand how important bands and artists can be for a person. Quote:
I hope I was logical enough this time. |
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Nov 27th, 2002, 02:10 AM | #12 | |
pazparacolombia
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I've been playing guitar for about 6 years. I was also into the whole late 80's-early 90's grunge thing that I agree was a necassary evolution. Arrrghhh...I had all these profound things i was going to say as this issue is exactly the kind of thing I would write a book on and talk for hours about (and do) but its too late and my mind just isn't working at the moment. You can bet that I will be back, though. Let me just say before I go that I believe that the guitar hero him or herself has gone through a much needed transformation from technical wizards with no sense of emotion to lead guitarists who compliment and also frontline in every way the emotion, angst, and connection to the music with pure raw energy in a beautiful dance of the most intense feelings of peace and terrible pain and unrest. Soundgarden is an incredible example.
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Nu-metal, as they call it, has indeed cut back on the guitar solos and masterful lead guitar work. I'll talk about my opinions on nu-metal more later. Of course a lot of what I'm talking about is mostly mainstream music. I listen to a lot of less mainstream stuff that, IMO, is certainly not lacking in the department of insanely good guitarists. This is also a huge reason why saying guitar heroes have dissappeared is completely ridiculous. Also, The older ones that haven't died of drug overdoses or suicide or what not are still around! They didn't go anywhere! And a lot of them are still making incredible music. Arrghh...I have to go for now. I just can't think anymore. I think I must have sounded all over the place mentally in this post. Time for bed. _RED_ stuff
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Nov 27th, 2002, 05:21 AM | #13 | ||||||||||
Carpe Diem Baby!
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Liverpool, UK
Age: 49
Posts: 664
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You keep missing the point of this thread Faile, I'm talking about guitar players - not song writers. Quote:
I personally think George Lucas is the man - but I'm not going to get upset if someone criticises him. I see the good things he did, but also the bad things. Same with Kurt. Quote:
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- S
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Nov 27th, 2002, 07:31 AM | #14 |
ys.
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I feel you're missing the point of my argument. I'm stating that the death of fret work is by choice.
Case 1 : Matt Bellamy of Muse. Matt Bellamy is an amazing guitarist. He knows all his scales, uses them in his songs, plays all the arpeggios and harmonics you want, yet he does not overdo it to the point of farce. He writes them into the song so they become integral. The fact that he can also sing over them is an advantage. Now Matthew Bellamy is the best guitarist of our current generation, a fact backed up by all uk guitar magazines. He doesn't seek the recognition of 11 minute solos or any of the ego that goes with iron maiden-esque stagnant metal. His choice not to do this is typical and in keeping with his heroes - Kurt Cobain and Tom Morello. Case 2 : Tom Morello (ex of Rage against the Machine) of Audioslave Tom Morello doesn't go for your Vai/Halen solos either, yet he is an incredibly intricate and inventive guitarist. I'm not the biggest fan of rage but the guitar work is incredibly innovative. He has had a great influence on the way people approach the guitar. Case 3 : Billy Corgan (ex of Smashing Pumpkins) of Zwan Billy Corgan is my guitar hero. Listen to the smashing pumpkins songs soma with its solo or the song Geek USA (both from the siamese dream album). The solo from Geek USA is one of the best pieces of guitar work in the last 50 years. It is completely impossible to recreate (even according to Billy Corgan who would play a different arrangement of it live each time) and yet is firmly within the framework of the sound of the band. It is short, yet incredibly amazing. The smashing pumpkins were born of a time when playing a guitar solo was out of fashion. They along with the alt.rock and grunge movement helped to move guitar music away from the same sterile ground it has found itself stuck in in the years previous.
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Nov 27th, 2002, 08:26 AM | #15 |
Carpe Diem Baby!
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Just purely out of interest, Guitar.com have their Top 100 Guitarists of the Millenium on-line here.
Now I haven't posted this link to 'prove' anything, and it certainly doesn't mean that what Guitar.com say is correct. But it does make reasonably interesting reading. I just thought seeing as though the thread is about guitarists some may find it interesting. - S
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Nov 27th, 2002, 10:57 AM | #16 | |
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Nov 27th, 2002, 11:12 AM | #17 | |
Carpe Diem Baby!
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Bullet In the Head - now that's a solo... - S
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Nov 27th, 2002, 11:15 AM | #18 | |
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- I'm sorry S, but I repeat, your method is not right. It's not even a matter of personal opinion, it's a matter of non-sense. Blaming an artist for the bad influence he had on others is non-sense, and that was the core of your first posts. It's ignorant because it's a wrong method you're applying. Not to mention the fact that blaming a single person for creating a whole style it's a bit naive! - I explained the sense of "coward" in my post. - Faile and all the others are just saying that Van Halen and all the others he mentioned say nothing to him, he doesn't "like" them at all. If you said the same of Nirvana, I wouldn't have even replied to the post. Mercury prefers Metallica? That's great, everybody has a favorite band. - Someone can, others can't. I was passionate, but extremely logical too. - Btw, I see we have completely different opinions on a lot of matters, and in musical tastes too. I hate Guns'n Roses like few other bands; anyhow I don't blame them. |
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Nov 27th, 2002, 01:03 PM | #19 |
Calculating Infinity
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Tom Morello is auctually a Harvard graduate, really smart guy. I think Tom is an interesting guitarist, but I don't really like the music that much. Evil Empire was a good, solid album, but I disliked Battle of Los Angeles and their s/t album. Too much rappin' on the first album.
And also, it seems guitar.com believes Kurt Cobain is a better guitarist than David Gilmore and Kirk Hammett
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Nov 27th, 2002, 01:15 PM | #20 | |
Carpe Diem Baby!
Joined: Jan 2002
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Age: 49
Posts: 664
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But hey, I managed to invoke some kind of emotional response (albeit not intentionally), and that's one of the merits of a good debate. For me it makes a change from the usual 'name your fave game' type thread. Although I am somewhat suprised that is has taken this long for someone to post something that has had this effect (I appreciate you've had a ton of 'nuisance' posts, but no matter how much you disagree with my posts in this thread, they have not been in breach of the TOS.). Yeah, we do have different opinions on some things, yet probably have similar opinions on others. That's what makes us who we are. Any community needs to have different opinions otherwise it will stagnate and cease to evolve. Things would get real boring real quick if we all agreed on the same things... However, since last night, I can't help but wonder if I have out-stayed my welcome on these forums. Considering you (Harry), Fortune and Faile (all mods/admins) have all come down on me like a ton of bricks, I would not like to a) have all my posts judged purely on the basis of this thread, and b) ending up having to leave in a unhappy manner. - S
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