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[BlackThornn]

Originally posted by Weapon_XZ84

I think Blackthorn that maybe you should look at this from the point of the Iraqi people and not from your point. You see you sit at home safe as can be barely being affected by this war at all yet you act as though your opinion is LAW. The truth is have this war be told afterwards. After the threats to the iraqi people have been eliminated. Then ask them how they feel about the war . Id bet anything they will be happy as can be...thats what happens when U get freed after 30 plus years of Oppression. They are in Iraq living like thier sub human while U sit at home and whine/bitch/moan about the war that has little effect on you in comparison to the people actually in Iraq.[/b]

I really fail to see where I'm putting forth my opinion as law. It's called debating, man. That's how it works. Aquiescing to an opinion you don't believe in isn't in the handbook

And don't get me wrong, it warms my heart to see Iraqis dancing in the streets with freedom bestowed upon them after Saddam.. But I think that if they are grateful to America after this is all over it will only be somewhat. We've annihilated a good deal of the country with our smart weapons and killed thousands of civillians.. we've let looters destroy or steal priceless pieces of mankind's past after promising to defend the museum.. then sent our soldiers to protect the MINISTRY OF OIL.. instead of asking the regime not to put innocent people in the path of our war machine in it's defensive operations Bush asked for them to NOT SET THE OIL WELLS ON FIRE. I look at it from an Arab viewpoint, and an Iraqi viewpoint.. and the general public, as well as history, will judge us harshly for our actions, despite the net effect.

The soldiers we send over their SIGNED up to be in the army understanding full well what they were getting themselves into. I respect them like no others for that but I dont feel sorry for them having to go to war, thats THERE JOB. If the tables were turned and we were the truly oppressed ones I bet Ud feel completely different about this.

What does this have to do with anything? Yes, in a professional army they know that they must go over there and be put in harm's way; but the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is supposed to moderate his use of the army since he knows that lives will END on both sides because of the actions he takes.

And what about being "truly" oppressed? What kind of malarky is that? The reason I'm so up in arms is because the Bush administration is laying the groundwork to strip the rights from American citizens with things like The US PATRIOT ACT. and it's son Patriot Act II. And were I being "truly" oppressed I would be voicing my outrage from Victoria, Canada.

Instead of throwing around BS lies like "Bush stole the presidency" youd be begging another country who was blessed with wealth and a good economy to help you out a little. I dont think the strategy would matter much to you would it.

No, I'd be fighting to restore the freedoms of this country, 'cause the true ideals of the constitution and freedom are something I would die for.

The freedom of thousands is more important than the lives of a few 100..thats what I believe. This war will have eternally positive effects for the world.

Now who's touting their opinion as law? Who are you to say that the death of a few THOUSAND (that's right, add another zero, buddy) is worth the supposed freedom of the rest of Iraq? How is it worth it when they're noncombatants? Are you going to explain that to the families of those who died? Maybe to the additional thousands of wounded..?

So try and have some empathy put your self in an iraqi civilians shoes who wants their children to have a better life than they did . But seing as how your freedoms never been threatened you wouldn't be able to I guess . Many of us have been spoiled by freedom so much so that we think we have to express it as much as possible and as strongly as possible. You take yourself FAR to seriously Thorn.

I do put myself in an Iraqi civillian's shoes. And I see that Iraqi civillian as not wanting to lose his history to looting, not to be in danger from the anarchy that is just now coming under some modicum of control, and I would not want to have been "liberated" by a three week US bombardment that saw likely at least a friend or two killed or wounded.

And yes, we do need to express our freedoms as much and as strongly as possible because they are in danger of being usurped by the current administration. See my post about Patriot Act II in the Pearl Jam Controversy thread for what I'm talking about.

I take myself seriously because these are serious matters, WeaponX. I, for one, refuse to stand idly by while the ideals people have died to protect are softened up to be removed by the government in the name of protecting us from some ubiquitous terrorist group (that by the definition of Patriot Act II, could be any political group that the Attorney General, John Ashcroft, deems).

If you feel your right(And better at polotics than the people that run the U.S) ..become a politician and make those changes happen. Untill then your opinions are nothing more than that OPINIONS (Not Fact) Realize that.

I do realize that. My posts here are all opinions and beliefs, I have never put them forth as otherwise (except for the FACTS I've posted about George Bush and the current administration). Assuming is much is just that on your part; an assumption. Though I daresay I seem to be more informed about the situation than most of those I debate with. Probably because as of late I've obsessed over the facts to piece together an image of the truth.

Originally posted by Weapon_XZ84
P.S And also......I dont trust your silly little "reports" that come out of iraqi news organization that could be and very likely are still under the influence of Saddams regime. Im sure The U.S killed thousands upon thousands of irqi civilians . Give me a fucking break . You believe these unofficial iraqi sources that come out of no where...come on !. Pull your head out of your ass for just a second. And also...no one dragged you into this debate my friend you posted your opinion as if it were LAW and all anyone else has done is posted theres in response to your outrageous stance. Also Blackthorn I apologize if you take any of the above as a personal offense because I dont mean to turn this Debate into a fullblown argument or personal front

I've got the reply to the rest of this written out on another computer, so I'll post that later as an edit to this message. I'll just say for now that my "Saddam controlled" arab sources that you think are so silly are from Saudi Arabia (Pro US), Kuwait (Pro US) and Al-Jazeera (kicked out of Iraq for "spreading US PROPAGANDA by Saddam's regime). And they SHOW the overcrowded hospital hallways and bloodied corpses of children in Baghdad, Al Kut, Basra, Najaf, An Nassiriya and other places inside Iraq. Were I to believe suspected Iraqi propaganda I would have posted by now about the "warehouse" in Kuwait that holds 800 body-bagged US Soldiers, supposedly only one of many. Who's head is in who's ass? I'm open to the big picture, WeaponX. Not just what Faux news or MSNBC places in front of me (though I watch those extensively as well).

Your little quip about my opinion being law I've already writen about, and will post later. Let's just say you misunderstand my writings seriously.

EDIT1: I've decided to add a little humor to another discussion about war.

Hilarious.

I'm going to get the "No infidels will pour coffee in this mug! EVER!" coffee mug.

[Vicious_2003]

Heh. I read that the site you linked to got soo many hits in its first day of existence that the server got bogged down and they had to move. Funny stuff. But sense this debate is clearly not going anywhere Ill just say a few closing words. blackthorn, You make these claims you hear from AlJezeera* and other sources . Until proven I dont believe for one second that the U.S killed that many Iraqi Civilians and until it is absolutely proven I dont see how U can say that either, or use it to support your "Un substantial claims" that apparently we went on a civilian killing rampage in Iraq. You have no IDEA if those reports hold water so why do you form your opinions based on them ?. I believe what I see. When I see thousands of Iraqis dancing and rejoicing, beating up pictures of Saddam I believe THAT not some reports out of Al Jazzera who are famous for spouting Iraqi Propaganda. I cant necessarily say your wrong but I say innocent untill Proven guilty...when CNN/Fox News/Any Official Credible News station out of a non biast country reports that the U.S is responsible for well over 500,000 (You said 100,000 HAH !) civilian deaths then I might believe it. But I dont give a rats ass about what comes out of Al Jazeera. Weren't they the station that aired pictures of bloody tortured American POW's !? Oh yeah real fu*ing respectable (Doesent that just scream "controlled by Saddams Regime") . Bottom Line ......"THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS" . And its funny you have dogged Bush at every turn in this forum yet I dont hear U criticizing the iraqi Regime perhaps your a fan Kidding. Also in regards to your statements about Iraqs precious Historical artifacts. Dont you think that the U.S troops in Iraq have more important things to tend to than people stealing things from unused government buildings ?. For Christ sakes there are still patches of resistance....and hundreds of possible suicide bombers within iraq. Thier are more important security matters to be dealt with first.....or perhaps to U a few ancient pieces of furniture are worth more than the lives of our troops and the civilians of iraq ? (also Thorn thanks for keeping it civil, all too often people get carried away in debates about important subject matter. Its good to debate someone who can keep a level head. Perhaps my telling you to pull your head out of your ass was a lapse on my part in restraint I should have found a better way to put it )

[BlackThornn]

(You said 100,000 HAH !)

I said that the FIRST Gulf War had 100,000 Iraqi soldier deaths, and those were the forcibly conscripted army units, not the republican gaurd (which Saddam held back).

What I said about civillian casualties in THIS war were in the TENS of THOUSANDS.

Also.. if you really think CNN or Faux news is not as much of a propaganda tool as you think Al Jazeera is.... let me just say you're sadly mistaken.

You don't trust Al-Jazeera, try Reuters.

And its funny you have dogged Bush at every turn in this forum yet I dont hear U criticizing the iraqi Regime perhaps your a fan

You've provided the very reason I dog bush at every turn. Too many people say this and aren't kidding in this country. This is the very reason that I'm so alarmed and shocked about things such as the Patriot Act.

For Christ sakes there are still patches of resistance....and hundreds of possible suicide bombers within iraq

I'm painfully aware of this fact. The point of most of my arguments concerning our policy in Iraq is we're shooting up a van full of civillians and children a day and breeding even more hatred, resistance, and suicide bombers. Even the american news organizations bent on reporting a completely sanitized war report these incedents.


To be honest I'm getting really tired of arguing these things on this board. I won't be replying further.

[Infernal Mass]

https://www.msnbc.com/c/0/147/659/10x7/030403_war_08.jpg


Digi
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[Vicious_2003]

And they said that it was the first batch of PS2s that contained materials used in war. Now we see the truth ... the GBA is the true weapon of WAR ! . Probably using it to fill his daily quota of Civilian murders as Blackthorn said (J/K)

[BlackThornn]

*laughs* Good ol' DigiMortal.