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[BlackThornn]

Some good points.. Women should be able to do whatever they want.. if they are not 'made to be mothers', then they should not have children..

But I know that while I support my girl in whatever she does, if/when we have a kid together I think she should be at home taking care of the child. I know what growing up without a mom is like, and it sucks, I don't want my kid to have to go through that..

[Sword 4 Hire]

My mom stayed at home while I was growing up and now that I'm older she has takin up a job. I think that more women who have children should do this...make time for their kids before all else

But back on topic I feel women are capable of doing anything they set their minds to...they arent restricted to the kitchen

[MakgSnake]

Originally posted by Ruby Moon
because the fact they love their children doesn't make them the slaves of the house

Well Ruby, Thats Something Totally Wrong To Say, In Any Manner......I Mean.......A Mother's Main Job Is To Look After Kids (That Is No Slavery In Any Manner AT ALL) U Cant Say That. A Mother Should Give More Importance To Her Child Then JOB.

And Yes....I Am Religious A Little........Because If A Female Doesn't Marry And Doesn't Have Kids Just BECAUSE She Doesn't Wanna Raise Kids Or Wanna Run Away From Slavery (If Thats What She Thinks It Is), She Is Commeting A Sin....Because She Should Remember That She Was Once A KID Too And Was Raised By Her Mother And No Other Stranger.

Work Is Good Very GOOD.....But She Should Give Importance To Her Offspring. Like Black Thorn Has Said.!.!

[Carlito]

Nowadays there are fathers who can take care of their children while the mother is working and the children are not affected by this choice: they keep on growing like the children mainly raised by mothers. If you marry a woman, you should take care of children as well, so that both of you can work. There's not much sense in pretending that a woman remains at home taking care of little children while the man of the couple can do whatever he likes, from going to work to spending a day out with his friends.
If a mother main duty is raising children, well, it's exactly the same for a father. If the father main duty is considered to be bringing money to the family, well, a woman can do the same thing and bring money as well. They both have the same duties.
That's why the ones who say a woman should stay at home and take care of the children after having them are not talking about equality IMO.

[Ruby Moon]

That's exactly what I wanted to say!
Thanks Carlito for the help!

[Hadoken]

I think women should be able to do whatever they want. BUT a woman should also know how to cook, clean, and other kinds of things that they should traditionally know.
I mean, what happens when she has a husband, then has kids and doesnt know how to do any mother/wife type things? and worse yet, what if the man doesnt even know? then they have a problem.
there is a time when a women should belong in the house(raising children), and a time when they can do anything they want.

[BlackThornn]

Originally posted by Carlito
Nowadays there are fathers who can take care of their children while the mother is working and the children are not affected by this choice: they keep on growing like the children mainly raised by mothers. If you marry a woman, you should take care of children as well, so that both of you can work. There's not much sense in pretending that a woman remains at home taking care of little children while the man of the couple can do whatever he likes, from going to work to spending a day out with his friends.
If a mother main duty is raising children, well, it's exactly the same for a father. If the father main duty is considered to be bringing money to the family, well, a woman can do the same thing and bring money as well. They both have the same duties.
That's why the ones who say a woman should stay at home and take care of the children after having them are not talking about equality IMO.

Jointly taking care of the children is all well and good, but it is an ideal not easily reached.

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I work much of the day and I need to take that work home with me just to pay my own bills, getting promotions will probably only increase the amount of time I am away providing for the family when I have one, somebody needs to be home to take care of the kids. Call me overly traditional if you want but I want that person to be my wife, not some freakin' babysitter.

Many women don't even respect "stay at home" moms any more.. and I think women like that should be smacked upside the head, same as men who think the same way. Taking care of kids, even one, is a grueling job in and of itself. Saying that someone is catering to a chauvanist society (what some ***** blabbed out when I was discussing this very thing today at lunch) by following biological drives and yes, tradition is ridiculous, and preaching that people who say "women should stay at home" after they have children is equally so. It's not about equality, it's about responsibility. The father's responsibility is to make sure the lights are on, the food can be cooked, and the roof is fixed; and the mother's responsibility is to nurture the child, until that child is at least 12 or something.. Let's not forget that we are not talking about just how the mother and father feel, but that there is a growing human life involved. I have seen too many latchkey kid friends I had in grade and high school grow up to be so ****** up mentally. It is not something that should be done. Career comes second to children once they are had, that goes for both parents. If the father is making enough money on his CURRENT job and CURRENT position then he should make time to be with and take care of the kids, putting advancement in his career on hold as well.

[MakgSnake]

Originally posted by Carlito
There's not much sense in pretending that a woman remains at home taking care of little children while the man of the couple can do whatever he likes, from going to work to spending a day out with his friends.
If a mother main duty is raising children, well, it's exactly the same for a father. If the father main duty is considered to be bringing money to the family, well, a woman can do the same thing and bring money as well.

Well, Its People Opinions, Ure Right About That, Cause Its Ure Opinion. Its Also Been Scientifically Proven That A Child Needs A Support Of Mom, Then Dad. The Love Of Mother Can Never Be Given By A Dad No Matter What.

And I Never Said Anything Like........Mother Should Take Care Of The Kid So That The Father Can Spend Time With His Friends. Its Just A Proven FACT That Whenever A Female Starts Working Mainly In Western Areas......The Kid Is Completely Ignored And Is Given To A Baby Sister. .... And Like That......She Gets A Habit Of Spending Time Without The BABY...So Even When She Goes To Any Parties.......They Call In For A Baby Sister And Head To A Party And Have Fun. That Is Wrong. People Dont Know How Much A Child Needs The Love Of Mother.

I Am Not Talking About Equal Rights Here....I Am Just Saying, That If A Child Asks Whos Love And Effection Is More Important To Him/Her.......The First Three Times, Its The Mother's Love And Then The Father Comes In The Way.

Job Is Good And If Women Wants To Work, Please Do, But If U Are Going To Give Ure Baby To A Complete Stranger All Day And All The Time, Then Ure Job And Its Money Is Not Worth Anything.

[Pu the Owl]

I'm kinda disappointed by you guys, because you seem so open-minded, but when it comes to subjects like this one it is clear that you're not.... Especially when you say that in a couple is the woman that must know how to cook, how to clean and how to take care of children. I cannot hide my disappointment for your opinions. And I'm even more disappointed by women, that celebrate stuff like "Woman's Day" going out and drinking and so on, and then the day after they come back to the kitchen, to washing their husbands' clothes and to cleaning the house.
Men can do the same thing women do at home, don't you know? If in a family a woman works and so does the man, they BOTH MUST TAKE CARE OF HOUSEWORKS! Why do you say that when the man comes back from work he is tired, while the woman can still do the houseworks even if she's tired as well? Because she's traditionally supposed to be the one who does all the work in the house? This is really stupid IMO.

You're not that much open-minded....and I'm scared by the fact there's still someone who can vote the option #2 in the poll. You must be joking, or at least I hope for you.

[MakgSnake]

Its Not That Fortune, Being Open-Minded Doesn't Mean That U Allow Women To Do Whatever They Want And Help In The House Work.

I Was Talking About Taking Care Of The Child, Which Is More Important Then WORK Or Any Other Thing. If U CANT Take Care Of The The CHILD, Then DONT Produce THEM And If U Do....Then Be Responsible Enough.

Cleaning The House And Working is The same Thing. ThroughOut The Life History....It Is Said That.....Men Are Suppose To Work Outside The House And Women Are Suppose To Work Inside The House.

Cause We ALL Know That ... Working In The House Is More Easy Then Dealing With The World. But ...... "WOMEN" Thinks That If They Stay AT HOME....They Are Being Forced To Stay Here... U See If U Stop Someone By Doing Something, THEY WANT TO DO IT MORE... Thats The Same Thing With Females Now. They Wanna WORK And Not In The House Cause Thats What They Are Suppose To Do.

Just Like A Kid Doesn't Wanna Do His Homework.

I Wont Be Calling Myself Open-Minded Just Because I Start Working With My Wife.........That Is Helping Her.

If Something Goes Wrong With A CAR...Something With Its Engine...A Female Just Thinks Its END OF This World. Why Not Try Learning It How To Fix It. (I Am Talking About Majority).

Work Is GOOD, Like I Said Before...........But The Atmosphere Counts More!.!

[Pu the Owl]

Sorry Makg, I must tell you're saying such things for two main reasons:
1- Muslims religion and culture (that also kinda exploits women in some parts of the world).
2- You're a male yourself.

You cannot pretend women to continue doing what men want they to do. This is a really unfair and restricted vision of the possibilities of women.
I repeat that you're not open-minded at all, and the last post confirms this opinion. Traditions are not made to continue even if the world changes, What you're saying was good for one or two centuries ago, not for the present moment. The truth is that males can't manage doing the same things females are able to do in the house, at least not the majority of males, while women demonstrate everyday they can work as men do, in some cases even better. Males feel out of place for this reasons. You're jealous of your virility, that's why you keep on telling women should stay at home making children and doing houseworks. Many of you in this thread admitted they're not able even to cook in a decent way. Well, that makes me laugh. Women can work and men can't even take care of themselves

You should think about it, mainly because you're not a woman and you cannot understand how frustrating and humiliating is for a woman, at least a clever and indipendent one, to have a relationship with men like you, with this way of thinking.
If this is the mentality of the average man, well, I understand why many women prefer to remain single and choose career instead of a family...
I'm tired of hearing stuff like this again and again.

Note: Makg, I thought you were intrigued by MGS women because they are indipendent and equally strong and skilled as men Isn't it a paradox, hearing you talking like that about REAL women???

[MakgSnake]

Originally posted by Fortune
You should think about it, mainly because you're not a woman and you cannot understand how frustrating and humiliating is for a woman, at least a clever and indipendent one, to have a relationship with men like you, with this way of thinking.

Note: Makg, I thought you were intrigued by MGS women because they are indipendent and equally strong and skilled as men Isn't it a paradox, hearing you talking like that about REAL women??? [/B]

Well Yeah....I Am A Muslim....And Its Not That I Am Saying That Because Of My Releigon. Fortune Are U READING Me Or Not.....I Was Saying For The Sake Of The CHILD. Nothing More Then That. And Fortune Female Characters Work And Do Whatever They WANT... They Are Not Raising A Child At The Same Time In The Game...Now.. Are They?

If U Work......Go Ahead!.! But If U Have A Child........Make Sure U Give More Importance To Ure Offspring Then Ure WORK.

[Pu the Owl]

I was not referring to the matter of children in particular way, I was talking in general about the role of the woman and the role that men give to woman.
And BTW, I agree with those who previously said that if the mother works, the father can have a bigger role in raising children. I find difficult to understand why if a mother is considered not serious enough because she wants to keep working while raising children, it's not the same for a father. There are single or divorced mothers who are raising children in a worse way than some single father could do. This is kinda explicative that a mother is a mother, but not all women are good enough to be mothers, or they simply don't want to raise children. Women and mothers are not the same thing: a woman doesn't necessarily have to be mother in her life.

[BlackThornn]

That is what I have been trying to say. Apparently I came off as some kind of closed-minded prick.

I am happy for any woman who wants to concentrate on her career instead of children, that's great, but if they have kids they should put thier careers on hold. A child is more important than a promotion, goddamnit. This thread is about the "place" of a female.. I think that's a bit blunt. Life is more complicated than there just being a place. And I think that the people who voted that second choice (I voted the shiny thing) were making references to after she had bore children.

The bottom line is.. most men suck with kids. We can take care of ourselves just fine, Fortune. But usually you don't want to feed a kid a steady diet of grilled cheese sandwiches and freakin hot dogs. I got lucky, I got a dad who could manage the fianances, do a bunch of cleaning around the house, AND he could cook. (Ever seen the movie Mr. Mom?) But he is most definantly not the standard. I am not saying that by default women can perfectly cook a sufle (..I've never been able to spell that), boil eggs, and balance checkbooks, but in my experience they're a whole hell of a lot better at doing that kind of stuff than the men I know. And these guys aren't dumbasses, they're mostly successful draftsmen and architects.

Basically, a woman should be able to do whatever the **** she wants with her life, but if she has a kid, she should devote a few years to nurturing it. It's not that much to ask not to simply hire a babysitter every day because you're working to become partner, when there is a human life concerned.

[Rei]

We can do whatever we want, and BTW I'm a woman and I can't cook. Does it make of myself a not-so-complete woman?! No way!
A woman is not a robot who can do the houseworks and nothing else. And if a mother doesn't want to hire a babysitter, when she's out the father can take care of children. Why don't you ever mention this possibility? If a woman leaves her work for some years only taking care of the house, she becomes frustrated and in the end she will probably never get the job she wants.
And just to add a note: my father is a very skilled cook. He won't let my mother do all the housework. He's a perfect man from this point of view, and I can't stand men who don't want to move a finger in the house because they have a wife who can do all the work for them.

[kupoartist]

Everyone is capable of the same stuff. I don't see why a guy can't stay home and do the "mother" jobs. If there is a problem with guys not being able to interact with kids, thats not due to his lack of genetic expertise in that area. He could do it, if society hadn't already told him that doing it isn't right. But what the hell does society know? Through my experience, the expectations of Society ammount to a big pile of crap anyway, based on a couple of thousand years worth of illogical, persectution geared poo anyway.

Well... somthing like that anyway :/

[BlackThornn]

I can't hunt or fish, does that make me any less of a man? No. Not being able to do things that are supposed standards doesn't make anyone less of anything, that is so not the point I have been trying to make it's not even funny.

Okay, so you're saying that doing better at a job is more important than making sure a child turns out to be a healthy human being? A promotion is more important than a kid?!

I can't agree with that but I am not going to be junked in with people who are saying fathers should do no work. And I didn't say anything about not being able to cook making anyone less of a woman, Rei!

Women are not robots, they are more valued by us than any of you will probably ever know, especially those of us who did NOT grow up with a f****** mother figure in the house. You have no idea what it is like for the kid, especially when the mother is availiable but just will not come home because she values her job more. It makes the kid feel UNWANTED, UNNECESSARY.

Also note: I am not the kind of father who thinks that men shouldn't "lift a finger" around the house, Rei. I didn't say that and I don't advocate it. If you would read the posts I've already made on this matter I've said that both parents should be adequately "inconvenienced" work-wise to take care of the child. Both should help around the house, and both should be with the kid. I do not appreciate being lumped in with lazy asses that you have mentioned in seemingly direct reply to my post.

[JC Denton]

Originally posted by the_artist
Everyone is capable of the same stuff. I don't see why a guy can't stay home and do the "mother" jobs. If there is a with guys not being able to interact with kids, thats not due to his lack of genetic expertise in that area. He could do it, if society hadn't already told him that doing it isn't right. But what the hell does society know? Through my experience, the expectations of Society ammount to a big pile of crap anyway, based on a couple of thousand years worth of illogical, persectution geared poo anyway.

Well... somthing like that anyway :/

your a genius,

actually i think sometimes it can be other way round, women are no longer expected to stay at home, but if a world war were to break out and there was conscripition men would be expected to go, or be a coward, if a man does not go to work society calls him in general a bad father, but if a women does go to work, she is respected for working and if she stays at home she is sympathised with.

Public baise and opinion has changed, have you noticed how now men are portrayed so much as dunb things that cant do anything, so many adverts are about men failing at womens jobs and so many about women beating men at their jobs such as d.i.y.

ok the simpsons is a funny cartoon, i agree but what is it teaching the nest generation?
and talk about women portrayed as objects, how many times do you see men as objects for women on tv? lots, but does society care? do they even notice?
wake up people you want equality?thats fine, but you are tipping the scales too far.

any way i dont like argueing, so i will stop now! and take a chill pill.

[Rei]

Blackthornn, I was not taking into cosideration only your words. Just to make it clear.
And Jc you're kinda right about men stuff you said. But above all I agree with the_artist.
It seems that someone here is questioning the validity of traditional roles, and yet they want them to be granted as well. This is illogical.
Traditions say man must go to war otherwise he's coward: this is bad.
Tradition say a woman must stay at home and possibly spend the greatest part of her life working for her family: this is good.
Being honest I think both positions and millions of other similar position giving fixed roles to men or women are equally stupid.
So doeasn't matter if it regards men or women. The fact is that this thread is about women, not men, that's why we are discussing about wrong roles that society identifiy with woman roles, not because it's not the same for men in different fields.

[MakgSnake]

I Think, Women Now Are Just Simply Pissed At The Whole World. They Just Wanna Go Against What Is And Was Said.

If The World Starts Saying.....ALL WOMEN SHOULD WORK And THATS IT!.! Very Soon A Time Will Come....When All These Females Will Say....WHY SHOULD WE WORK....WE ARE NOT ROBOTS, WE SHOULD STAY AT HOME .... And Will Stay At Home.

Just Wanna Go Against Things.........Thats What Todays Female Is Like.

If I Say......."Oh, Changing A Tire Of A Car Isn't A Girl's Job"....Now If A Female Hears Me Say That....She Would Say.."Oh YEAH....We Can Do It...And We Will.." Just Because I Said...Its Not Their Job (Actually)..

I Am Not A Doctor......So....I Should Opererate On A Body Just Cause Some GUY/GIRL Tells Me...."Hey U Cant Operate That Body". And If I Try To Do The Operation....I'll Be Doing It Out Of Anger. ... Pathetic!!!