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[Lava42000]

well to reply to ice's question (which is a breath of fresh air caus it was gettin pretty negative in here) I think it is wrong just because thats not the way u should be. This isnt an opinion based on the bible either, if you have ever looked at a guy and a girl look at how they would "fit together" when doin the hibbidy dibbidy. I am only fourteen so i wouldnt really know yet, but when a guy and a girl are havin sex they look to fit together pretty well. Also, has anyone ever noticed that weird occurance when a guy put sperm in a girl and it fertilizes her egg and she somehow reproduces and makes a child. i do believe that involves 1 man and 1 woman, hmmm... interesting...

[BlackThornn]

If you picked homosexuality freely then that's a lifestyle choice. Like a haircut.

Like those guys with spiked haircuts, y'know the ones with tufts of hair sticking straight up with hair gel?

It's not the choice that might suit you, but it's still a valid choice. God isn't sending all people with spiked hair to hell.

What I became so aggravated about was that after seeing all of the pain, conflict, confusion, and eventual refusal that one of my closest friends went through, somebody comes along and says that he had a free, easy choice of wether to be miserable or not. That's what got me incensed.

Strong enough to change.. that would imply overcoming a natural impulse, would it not? Natural impulses are not free will. And not thinking about a teacher "that way" and not thinking about every attractive person (to you) that way are completely different things. Again, could you train yourself not to be sexually attracted to any women?? Could you train yourself to like guys?

If it's a natural impulse, and something to overcome, why is it there? Why would god put it there as a "test" for some and not others? Completely random?

Failing to "overcome" being homosexual, even IF it is something to overcome, is not something God would send you to hell for. Not if it weren't a test every human had to pass.

[Reid]

That's wonderful but the difference between sexual orientation and trying to give more respect to your teacher by not being sexually attracted to her are incredibly different!

Why would you supress being with another person who could make you happy because a bunch of religious zealots think that's wrong?

Look at other supression (because you're saying that's the way that homosexuals should live):

Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry or make love to anyone, so their hormones get pushed back to where they become sick enough to pursue and sexually harass altar boys!

Denying your feelings, or trying to change your sexual orientation is unhealthy and often results in very bad things happening in turn.

Also, if someone arguing against homosexuality could just quote or explain what the Bible says against homosexuality (Sodom and Gaommorah) and why it'd probably be good for everyone to hear.

[Lava42000]

I have been saying this the whole time, homosexuality is a choice, even if they somehow naturally felt the urge to like guys it could be overcome. Gay people that choose to be gay "freely" (although all gays choose freely) are training themselves to like guys; are they not? I could say that i was gay right now and train myself to be gay, it wouldnt be that hard, but i am going to stick with what is right. When i say right i dont mean by america's standards or the bibles standards, i mean by human standards. If everyone were gay and lesbian we would not reproduce anymore and would ultimately die off. Blackthorn, what u said about failing to overcome and how come homosexuality isnt a "test" for all just proved my point. God did not put homosexuality their, it is a human choice which is why he would send you to hell for it. Unless of course u repented which is why jesus christ is so awesome because he allows u to make mistakes.

and the other thing, the catholic priests that molest little boys are not examples of christians and just because they are not allowed to marry does not mean their free choice to like women is takin away.

Well i have to go now, it has been nice debating with all of you, none of this was meant to be personal and i hope you all did not take it that way. Blackthorn, I hope your friend endures and turns to whatever it is makes him happy, if its homosexuality, deep down he chose tha and now it is probably accepted to him as his lifestyle, i pray that he will find hapiness somehow. Have a good day everyone, i'm sure i will talk to u again.

[BlackThornn]

*sighs, shaking his head* Y'know, it's been so damned long since I've actually had to argue with a religious fundamentalist about homosexuality that I'd forgotten how impossible it is to undo the brainwashing they go through.

Lava.. Believe what you will. But Homosexuality is not a choice, neither easy or hard. God chose to "make" homosexuals for variety, either that or it is simply an evolutionary fluke. Either way it is natural, and it is not evil. It is not a sin.

Other than just saying this, I'm done arguing with you, Lava. Trying to do that I find akin to yelling at a tape recorder that is set to rewind/playback on an endless loop.

[happy_doughnut]

Originally posted by Lava42000
I have been saying this the whole time, homosexuality is a choice,

*laughs* Oh, but it is my friend .

Originally posted by the Chimichanga
they are both considered abominations..in that way they are the same.

Yes. That is exactly right, Kabuki.

[BlackThornn]

Mena.. Kabuki.. I really hope that one of your kids doesn't turn out to be gay.. for his or her sake..

[happy_doughnut]

Oh do not worry. Since I'm fully aware that they are not born to be that way... they won't, for they will know better than to do so.

[BlackThornn]

Just depressing. I really thought you were more open minded and intelligent than that. *sighs*

[kupoartist]

oh come on ffs. think sensibly. Why would anyone consciously make the choice to be ridiculed by idiots, hidden away from everyone and run the risk of never finding true happiness? Oh and BTW, the three most apparently Gay guys in my school also happen to be the three most religous (and in my school, I'd say that only about 20% are really religous, with at least 40% being of no definate Religous leaning at all). Personnally I think their just very scared about what they must face, and hope for some kind of salvation. One of them contemplates suicide and also is known for drinking large ammounts of alcohol.... and people wonder why I see no attraction in religon.

Oh and I think its strange.... the ones sticking up for the people in question are mostly people who know and interact with such people: Ask yourself this; Are they sympathetic because they've had Homosexuality pushed in their face, or is it just simply a matter of friendly, likeable people keeping to their own kind and keeping as far away from the apparent idiots as possible?

I know which answer I favour...

[happy_doughnut]

Originally posted by BlackThornn
Just depressing. I really thought you were more open minded and intelligent than that. *sighs*

Well, you may be right. My ' intellegence ' and capacity of being able to sustain a ' good ' debate may not be as strong or as vast as yours. Hell, it may not even measure up to half of your standards when in debate of your intricate theories.
But here I go again :

In my little brain, I think Homosexuality is just as ' social ' as the next thing. Many people who become homosexuals (I will refer to them as human-experima) when they grow up have become so because:

1) They grew up without a mother, thus, never really know the opposite sex (sexual incompetence may also be caused by this)

2) Strictly social and psychological: Human-experima call a "mate" the person which will complete them physically and spiritually, and they can't accept the possibility that they will not find this person simply because it will be of the same sex (bisexuality can also be caused by this).

3) Psychosis: Y'know, some bolts leave the skull, too much air going in, too much weeee. Animals go psychotic too.

4) The number of the persons of opposite gender is very small, either in populace, or in the social places the human-experima hang out. As a result, they are in the company of men too much, and go homosexual (that's why jails and army camps have a lot of homosexuals).

What really puzzles me with human homosexuality, however, is the fact that some, but not all homosexuals act with the way referred to as " gay ". That is, talk with a very altered female tone of voice, do extreme gestures, and such. I find that to be rather odd.

[kupoartist]

This is going to be quick and probably useless, but anyways... (need sleep)

1. never heard of that in any situation. usually makes the person in question over emasculate.
2. perhaps my brain is too tired or stoopid, but I can't actually work out what your saying here...
3. Possibly Prejudical. Psychosis would be caused by repeated bashing by others (happens to anyone). No records of Homosexuals running into Churches with Samurai swords.
4. Usually I hear of this creating more testosterone filled weirdos than Gays.

And with your final observation, I'm as puzzled as you ^_^... but hey non-gay guys act in plenty of different way as well.

[Sid554]

This thread is STILL going on?

[Infernal Mass]

Originally posted by BlackThornn
Mena.. Kabuki.. I really hope that one of your kids doesn't turn out to be gay.. for his or her sake..

that'll never happen, if it does i'll chokeslam the little dirty bastard.

Nah! lighten up Blackthornn, since when did you become the advocate of homoerotic tendencies. I'm sticking with my first statement - to each their own. Everyone has the right to be happy, who cares what others think. The ones that worry about what others think are the screwballs.

[BlackThornn]

Arguing with zealots gets me two things: Cranky and parinoid.

I was kinda thinking "..hey, waitaminute" about that abomination post.

And I'm not an advocate! *laughs* I'm just defending what I think is right. I don't want/like any friends of mine being subjected to crap like "I'm disgusted by you. You're going straight to hell." 'Ats all.

Mena, I didn't mean intelligence as in book smarts or being able to sustain a debate (which I think are both quite high, actually). Simply the fact that you keep thinking that it's solely from choice or environment is what's depressing.. I would have figured you as being able to wrap your mind more easily around the "birth" concept.. But.. In retrospect, I should have said either "lack of thorough thought on the matter", or simple lack of "close" experience with homosexual people. Sorry. *points to first sentence of post*

Anyway.. on with the point-by-point analysis, hmm?

1- Uh.. I grew up without a mother. I ended up being one of the biggest pus--h--... err.. Horndogs.. you'd ever know.

2- ..I guess I'm more tired than I thought too.. I am having a hard time understanding what this one's saying.

3- Yah.. animals go psychotic, but psychosis USUALLY burns out after a while.. That'd be trippy, to be all "flash" gay then "flash" straight again. It'd probably f*** with your head something royal too. I've also never heard of an animal going psychotic and just humping other male animals, instead of just either humping everything in sight, or going nuts and attacking.

4- Usually I hear of this creating overly "macho" guys, parinoid about turning into just that. At least in army camps. But you're right.. Environment can change an individual. (Thing is, I never said that it was ALL instances of "birth homosexuality")

In prisons, however, I think it's pretty much a matter of choice. *shrugs* I mean, those guys aren't exactly moral. They're a bunch of horny half-wits who see violence and dominance as a way of life.. and apparently they haven't been properly introduced to thier hands.

It doesn't puzzle me.. 'Cause the fact is if you took one of those "femmy" gay guys into the lab you'd find a much increased level of estrogen in thier system. I might be wrong but I'm guessing the more "butch" a gay dude is the more normal biochemical ..uh.. "layout" *..shrugs* and the more subtle imbalance that causes it is, if any.

Though, there's also the fact that some guys are just wierd. I mean, look at Eddie Izzard (one of my favorite comedians). He's straight, but he dresses up in women's clothing and wears makeup and ****. He doesn't have a lisp or nothin, but still. Humans is wierd.

[kamari-ice]

The Kabuki's thread.

[happy_doughnut]

Kamari : ?

Anyhow, very well.
I think everyone is a ' zealot ', in one way or another .

In actuality, I have had many close encounters with Homosexual people ( same goes for Bi's ect. ect. ) . I mean, I DO live in CA. after all https://www.westwoodi.net/~smilies/co...nx/magwink.gif .

I can apprehend what you're saying, actually. In fact, I do realize that many of the theories which state Homosexuality as being something that is so from the start, has many points which could make them correct. However, I personally, do not see things to be that way.

Your points are indeed very reasonable. Yet I cannot help but see many flaws in that of the laws of man.
I also know myself very well, and I am fully aware that I can argue for a very very long time, and that I don't have the best of tendencies when it comes to analyzing things point by point .

So with that being said, I'll let it be with my last couple of thoughts :

1.) I reiterate, I don't hate Homosexuals. I don't see why hatred should be a factor involved in this issue. But alas, they ( and everyone else ) can do what they please. They can go hump the first thing they see if they wish to do so. After all, it doesn't affect me.

2.) I think Homosexuality is something that is chosen. Mainly I think this way because of personal experiences. Many of the people that I know whom are like this, did not start out this way, rather, they ' became ' this because... well, they had issues. However, note that I said many, which means, that I cannot speak for all of them, because doing so would be utterly ridiculous.

3.) Again, I don't hate them. I just don't find myself to be comfortable around them. This is, again, a very personal way of thinking. If and when the time comes that I must socialize with them, I won't offend because that is not what I want nor intend to do.
I think they're ' different' ... and yes, sometimes I think they're gross.
Yet they do no harm to me, so why should I in any way harm them, right ?

4.) They are people. People, just like everyone here. I just think they're ' weird '... different . But then again, we are all weird in distinct ways if we think about it. Just like everyone else, they have different thoughts, feelings and opinions, but in the end... we are all just people trying to get by.

That's that .

[BlackThornn]

Originally posted by Mena

Kamari : ?

..I second that ? and raise a

3.) Again, I don't hate them. I just don't find myself to be comfortable around them. This is, again, a very personal way of thinking. If and when the time comes that I must socialize with them, I won't offend because that is not what I want nor intend to do.
I think they're ' different' ... and yes, sometimes I think they're gross.
Yet they do no harm to me, so why should I in any way harm them, right ?

I must point to my first post in this thread. I am not exactly uncomfortable, but it's not like I can't get unnerved when I see a couple of guys making like they're in the back of a car in high school. And I *really* despise the gay guys or lesbians that look at straight people with disgust, and voice it unabashedly; believing themselves and thier habits superior when they clearly are not. Y'know.. kinda like Mac maniacs.

I am so vehement about the subject because I have friends that are gay and my fiancee happens to be bi. They are not abominations, they are not going to hell (I might be after I get through with anyone who says that to my face, though), and they didn't choose to be that way.

[Serj]

I don't care about people and there ***gotry. I've have a good friend and He's been my friend over for 6-7 years now and he admitted to me a couple of weeks ago that he was indeed bisexual. So in reality, our friendship didn't change or anything. Thats his lifestyle and I really can careless. He's still my friend no matter what.

[Frozen]

Originally posted by Kabuki Magnifico
to each their own


kabuki: https://imbiss-coding.de/smiliez.de/smz/cl/cl_20.gif it's perfectly normal for women to be bisexual, because they are all beautiful love creatures.

Amen.

But I prefer straight ones

As for me, I've got nothing against homosexuals. I've got a bisexual female friend, and another lesbian friend, who is an adoptive mother. Not that I agree with all that, though. I think that there is some purpose for us have been created men and women, otherwise, we should all be of the same sex. I think that homosexuality is wrong and unnatural. But that's what I think, it's only my opinion and I mean no offense to anybody with this.

by the way....... *hugs Mena*