Fate vs Free will

[Pu the Owl]

Ok, this may sound odd, but someone expressed the wish to have also some serious discussion and that's what I'm trying to do now.
The topic is easy to understand, but the subject is not so easy, I think.
Are you a fatalist and you're sure doesn't really matter what you do and how good is your behaviour in life because nothing can change, or do you believe the human being has the possibility to act in a certain way to change the situation?
In brief: are you a supporter of the idea there's some space for free will or do you think fate is fate and that's all about it?

[Hadoken]

I dont think there`s such a thing as fate.
Fate is just something created by people, and something they want to believe in.
Its like an excuse for things. But who knows, I could be wrong.
I hope this conversation doesnt spur harsh arguements.

[BlackThornn]

I think it's a mix. There's definantly something that drives us to live and affects our decisions.

Second-guessing is free-will, say like a choice between two.. idunno.. clients. Both of them are offering huge amounts of money that could make an office huge or make a rival that and leave the one that refused in the dust. Neither of them has presented much details, just the outlines of a project.. your 'gut' tells you to go with one over the other. IMO, the 'gut' feeling without *any* knowledge of something is 'fate'. The nudge that's trying to lead you toward playing your part in life. Second-guessing that gut feeling and overthinking the situation is excercising free will, and breaking away from 'fate'. Most times things work out better if you choose what your gut feeling chose.

Fate exists, I think, but you need to take the opportunities it gives you. If you go against your own feelings, or 'fate' too many times.. pretty soon those feelings will stop coming. That's when you're drifting in a vast ocean of free will alone.. and I think that's when you're in trouble.


BTW, I believe that death isn't the end either. For the same reasons as Albert Einstien (spelling?). Energy is what powers our minds.. and energy can never die. It can only change form.

[Mercury Shadow]

Hadoken summed it up for me

[IcyMourdor]

Destiny, Fate, Given Paths. These are nonsence. Nothing is plotted out for me ahead of time. I have the ability to change what I do. Everything that happens to me is a direct result of things I have done. Events don't happen without a reason. People die in car accidents, fate didn't decide that. Faulty car, alcohol, distractions. Not some God saying, "Oh, I'll just make this person's car go off the road and get into a fatal accident". There must be a real reason for everything, some more obvious than others.

[BlackThornn]

Mourdor, if your post is in reference to mine, you missed the point. I expressly said that fate wasn't concrete. God isn't plotting out the exact path of everyone's life, anyone who seriously believes that is... well.. wrong. There are too many variables.

People dying in accidents as a result of alchohol, or faulty parts, or distractions, were all the direct fault of *someone*. There are no utter accidents save stuff that maybe happens because of weather. The drunk decided to do what the hell he wanted and drink, the maker of the machine that made the car part decided to not inspect it as thoroughly as it should have been that day, the person talking on the cellphone that crashed into the kid going to school on a bike is because that someone decided they wanted to talk on a damn cellphone while they were driving. There's not a set plan, but something affects us. Or most of us.

[Sword 4 Hire]

Wow this thread is deep...well I don't believe in Fate, I like to think that I'm in charge of what future I make for myself...not some unknown force.

[jenova_jeb]

Fate is a bunch of bull crap. I don't believe there's any such thing.

[MakgSnake]

I Believe Everything Is Written Down By "Him" Even Before When U Were Born....And Thats What U Get In Ure Life.

But There Comes A Time (A Day) Each Year When U Can Actually Change What Has Been Written For U And Make It In Ure Own Way!.! But For That U Have To Pray All Night And Show "Him" That Ure His Creation!.!


Whatever Happens In Ure Life Is Already Written..............But "He" Has Given U A Mind To Think About What Is Wrong And What Is Right!.! That Is Something U Decide, Which Hits U In A Present Situation. But Something Like Where U'll Be Exactly After 2 Years Is Not In Ure Hand!.!

[Evil Parrot]

I dont know if I beleive in fate, but I know theres no such thing as being 'totaly' in control of your life, theres always someone or something there to deflect you off course for what you want.

Some people are born into an ideal situation where their parents might be well-off or willing to encourage whatever decicions we make in life but then theres the other end of the scale.

So while I'm unsure about 'fate', I dont beleive that life is truly 100% there for the taking

[Uchiha Sasuke]

I believe fate exsists.It just seems that im on a path like everything in my life has been plotted out now that i look back at it.But still i have no idea where my life is heading or what the future for me will look like.

[kupoartist]

You have to know your future for Fate to exist. Few people know their exact path and where It will end, but these people aren't experiencing fate, they are simply using a calculated guess. A lot of us could predict what we shall have for breakfast tomorrow, but predictions of our exact deaths would be nothing more than guesses based on all the facts available to us.
The only way to be subject to Fate is to see the event in the future, and come back to the past. This is impossible for all of us. So fate is not a problem for all of us. As far as we are concerned, "Nothing Is Written."

... umm that probably makes no sense at all..

[Vamp]

me vote for free will as my fate is in my woman's hand

me want freeee willlll

[Pu the Owl]

Well, I don't know... everyone has an opinion. Personally I admire MakgSnake for his calm way of accepting the gift of life. It's a wonderful thing, even if I'm not religious I'm envious of this way of accepting things.

As for me, I don't think we can use free will that much, but I'm not saying it's because I believe in fate. I mean, when I see "coincidences", also cruel coincidences happening in people's lives, I can't force myself to think they're only stupid or tragic things that can always happen. I wonder if it's meaningful or not.

Many philosophers I've studied with interest have contrasting opinions on this subject. Some of them are sure Life is a sort of circle and it's always repeating itself. Others say everything will lead to perfection and human will isn't that important to complete the process. Someone else says life is pure matter of coincidences and chaotic elements thrown into our existance. I admire every single position, even if I know nobody's sure about it. They're all coherent, but they're not reliable, because we don't have any certainty.

[Reid]

I have a hard time thinking about fate and free will.

Events in my life have seemed to combine a mixture of the two.

One event that really stands out in my life, the death of a parent seems like something that was meant to happen (maybe because the entire experience felt so surreal for me during the entire time and for a year or two after), but coming to terms with my life and how it was going to change from that point on seemed liked pushing through something that was already set out for me, kind of like claiming a bit of free will.

Working through the pain and getting out of a personal downward spiral seemed like an enormous exercise of free will, something that certainly didn't feel pre-ordained, or set out for me already.

Some people might argue that whatever you do, no matter what you think about it is fate. It could've been fate to move on from a big event, but it felt more like I was exercising free will against fate.

In the book Timequake by Kurt Vonnegut, one of his characters, Kilgore Trout is stuck in a repeating "timequake" where he can tell what will happen in the next ten years, but is powerless to alter it, until near the end he breaks free from it, and helps others out of it.

I think that free will and fate both exist, alongside each other, and fate is more of an "auto-pilot" setting for our lives. Free will is almost an act of rebellion or determination against that guiding force, that (if we work hard enough on it) can break through it, and change what has already been layed on the table for us.

I don't know how relevant all of that is, but I hope it makes some sort of sense in the end.

[Neo_Soldier28]

I think that the main purpose of our life is already made but there are choice that are given to us inorder to get to that. And i think that no matter what you will get a choice and in the end you will fullfill your purpose in life

[Rei]

There are many obstacles and forces against everyone's free will.
Nobody's completely free to decide and I wouldn't call it fate, but the normal flowing of life.

[007_JamesBond]

I dont like the idea that I am not in control of my own life, I dont beleive in fate or destiny, I am in control of my life and no one else will ever be.

[Bhcdarkness]

i dont like fate. i dont like the idea that im not in control of my own life. i believe that if i want to do something, i do it. and i dont think decisions are made for me.

now im open to change. if some god comes swooping down from the heavens and can like make lightning come out of his hands and shit, and he tells me that hes making my choices for me, ill be MUCH more inclined to believe then.

but i think the human race has come way to far for it all to be fate. i mean weve made to many revolutionary discoveries and were way to curious for it all to have been fate.

Can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it?

[happy_doughnut]

Well, as someone has previously mentioned before, I think it is a combination of both. There are somethings in your life that "are meant to happen" as well as there are many times in which you have the option of choosing what you want to do. I personally believe that "He" put us here on this Earth for a reason. However, I also think He also gives us the opportunity to choose which path we will take during our life as well as the things we ourselves wish to submit to.

[007_JamesBond]

so then Mena do you beleive that we were created bygod or that we evolved? that kind of brings us back to the age old question which came first the chicken or the egg? I am against the fact that I am not in control

[Bhcdarkness]

the whole "Greater Being" thing doesnt work for me. its just too shaky.. i dont see how people can have faith in it... or atleast in the manner that Christians do. i dunno about Islamic culture or Buddist either.

id really like to disscuss it with someone who knows what there talking about in the Christian faith. because from what ive encountered with Christians around here is there all completly blind to other thoughts about faith and whatnot.

People around here are like "God has been here since the beginning" and im like "so what, he was just sitting around one day in the eternal darkness and was just like "hey, i think ill make..." so on and so forth.

and nothing is mentioned about dinosaurs... i mean it went straight from the earth, to adam and eve. and there is clearly scientific proof that dinosaurs existed.

sorry. im way to anilitical.

but as i stated before. im open to change. if 'God' comes swooping down from the heavens and can do all this crazy godly shit and i can shake his hand and talk to him... then im a believer.

please, someone who knows there Christianity give me some hints here on whats going on.

[Cannibal Clown]

For one, dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible. I don't follow the bible very well, but in the book of Job, there is a huge dragon like beast and all sorts of stange shit like that.

Think of it this way. Where do you think the idea of dragons came from? When you look at a skelleton of a Tyrannosaurus Rex, doesn't it look a lot like one of those renditions in those old knights in shining armour stories.

Anyway, I do believe in fate. It can be altered by what we do, but altimatly, will will all end up where we were supposed to.

For me it's like, only certain parts of our lives are set for us. We all have the option of doing what we want, but sooner or later, something beyond your control will take place and put you back where you were meant to be.

Think of your life, and about what you like about it. What you wouldn't change for the world. Then imagine how that came to be, and if one aspect of your life was changed, and your life would be completely different. It's hard to explain, but everything about you and who you are and what your life reflects on what has happened to you in the past. And usually those events are very big and important ones that you had no control over. What if it didn't happen? The mere fact that you're a boy, or a girl is all determined by which sperm got inside the egg first. What if your mother wasn't fertile that day, then your parents would try having you a different day, and it would have such a huge effect on who you are right now. Youi could be of the other sex, or have been born five months earlier, or later, being in a different grade, living with different people, growing up in a different environment.

What I'm trying to get at is that we have no way in hell in controlling what happens to us. Somehow, a higher power is at work and, even though we don't notice it, we are affected every day. We can't do anything about it. All we do, is make the journy a little more difficult at times, by changing what you want to happen.

I prtobally lost every body after the first line, but I hope I at least gotr through to someone.

[jenova_jeb]

If he came down and showed everyone what he could do then everyone would believe, the only problem is it wouldn't be because of your faith, it'd just be because of his tricks. God doesn't want to win you over with cheap tricks, he wants you to have faith and believe in him.
When you become a Christian and you begin to grow in your walk with Christ, you will be amazed at how some people can not acknowledge him at all. When you actually have a relationship with him, you will feel so much better! God has shown himself to me in AMAZING ways.

I'd like to address one of your points. The Bible never says that their weren't dinosaurs. Infact, it says that there WERE. The only difference is that they called him "behemoth" instead of "dinosaurs". It says that behemoth blows fire from his nostrils, and has skin like armor, and that there is no beast as mighty as him. Sounds like a dinosaur if you ask me.

Anyway, here is one of the spectacular things that has happened to me, which I am convince was from God.

A few years ago my family and I were camping at lake Michigan. We all wanted to go swimming, so we all got ready. My Mom decided that she was going to stay home because she was tired and wanted to take a nap. So my Dad and the rest of my siblings took off to the beach.
When we arrived, the waves were really big. We didn't realize it at the time, but they had one of those red flags out that meant there was an undertoe and that it was dangerous to swim. Since I hadn't seen the flag I ran down to the lake and got in. I was having a great time in the waves, smashing up against them and stuff. However, the farther I went, the harder I found it to swim. When I finally realized what was happening, there was no way for me to get out. I started screaming like crazy. I had never been so scared in all my life. No matter how hard I swam, I just kept going back. After a minute or so of screaming my head off, some of the people that were swimming a little ways back realized what was happening. My Dad saw what was happening and came out as fast as he could. It didn't do much good though because know he was stuck as well. Neither of us could get out no matter how hard we tried.

Meanwhile, back at the trailer which was a mile and a half away, my Mom had been sleeping. Suddenly she awoke with a start and had an overwhelming desire to pray for her son. She didn't know which one of us it was, but she knew that something was going wrong. She couldn't shake this feeling that she was being urged by God to pray for her Son (me), so she did. Once she was done, however, she just thought "oh, I must just be paranoid." So, she went back to sleep. However, after about 10 minutes she woke up again, with another overwhelming urge to pray for her Son. By this time she was starting to the she wasn't just paranoid, because no mateer what she did she could not get rid of the feeling. She prayed again, and went back to sleep.

Back at the beach my Dad and I were still caught in the waves. By now more people had caught on, and were trying to get stuff out to us so we could stay afloat. By then though, we were so far back that they were having a very hard time doing it. One of them finally got one of those little floaty things and started trying to throw it to me. My Dad was about 15 feet behind me. Finally after about 7 throws, he got it out far enough that I was able to reach it. After a little while, I had floated in far enough that I was able to get out. However, my Dad was still in caught in the undertoe, and they didn't have another floaty. Besides, he was about 15 feet behind me so there was no way they would have been able to get one to him. That's when the strangest thing happened, my Dad had a floaty! He doesn't remember where he got it, but he had it. Thankfully, he was then able to bring himself in. When we got to the beach we were both exhausted. It had been about 15 minutes of complete struggling. Once we were able to move, we tried to locate an owner for my Dad's floaty, but couldn't find one anywhere.

There's no way that that was just coincidence. There IS a God, and he IS real. If this had happened to you, there would be no doubt in your mind that God is very real.

We've had other things that were just as awesome as this happen to us as well. I can tell them if anyone is interested in hearing them.

You guys may not believe me, but that's ok. I'm not sure I would have believed it if it hadn't of happened to me. But let me assure you, it DID happen, and I will never forget it.

[Cannibal Clown]

That's really cool.

I know a few people who say that they've had experiences where they said that there was no dought that God was there saving their lives. The stories are actually kinda cool.

I'm not going to bother typing them down, because I'm too tired, and I don't like typing much at all so...

And Jenova, I believe you 100% about what you said.

I don't know if anyone else does, but I do. I'm also a christian, not a very strong one, but good enough for me to feel good about myself when I die.

Oh well, all of these stupid little questions we have will all be answered when we die. And if there really isn't a god, and life is just a little joy ride, oh well. At least I'm having fun riding it, with a clean consience. That's all that matters I guess.

[jenova_jeb]

Thanks, man :).

[happy_doughnut]

Very well said Jenova. That's a wonderful story *sniff*. That's just one of the many miracles God can do.

Well, as you might have seen, I never said you weren't in control of your life. Of course you are. God gives that option. No, I will never swallow that crap that we evolved from some ape or any other animal. The truth is that we were made by God and that is a fact. If one, however, chooses to not believe in what is true, you can go ahead and do so because you have that choice. The final outcome of our lives will depend solemnly on the decisions we make because that's how it's meant to be.