Freedom for Iraq?

[Spank-A-Thon]

I've been watching Sky News and Fox News for the past couple of hours and the scenes in Baghdad are truly over-whelming.

Despite my opposition to war and Bush/Blair's decisions, seeing the Iraqi people dancing and singing in the streets is truly something to behold.

To see the Iraqi people pull down Saddam's statue and hit it with shoes (an Iraqi insult) makes me feel happy for them.

It's definitely not over yet, but I am proud of the British and US Armed Forces. They've risked their lives for politicians, but through their actions have managed to bring joy to many Iraqi people.

I only pray now that the Iraqi people will finally find the peace and freedom they so badly need.

- S

[Esjay]

Yep, it's exactly why I support the war 100%, because I wanted to see something like this happen, something as beautiful as a whole country proclaiming it's long awaited and complete freedom.

But as you said, it's far from over...

[Redpyramidhead]

Originally posted by Spank-A-Thon

...managed to bring joy to many Iraqi people.

- S


And death and injury to countless others.

_RED_ stuff

[SplinterJD]

And death and injury to countless others.

Ok, Did you know that Saddam Huessein has used Chemical weapons on his own people including thousands of Kurds, also Coalition forces have found Tourture Rooms!:mad: and Morgues full of executed people (easily identified by bullets holes in their head) from way back in the 1980's. That is why I have supported this war from the start. Sometimes in war sacrifices have to be made for the benefit of the free world.;)

Also its great to see the Iraqi people celebrate like that just goes to show how bad it was for them. I mean I heard that Saddam declined Humanitarian Aid for the United Nations and those palaces are worth thousands if not millions of dollars.

It's definitely not over yet, but I am proud of the British and US Armed Forces.

Don't forget the Aussie SAS they've been behind ememy lines doing reconnaissance which has been invaluable and is the most dangerous of jobs in this war.;)

[Esjay]

Originally posted by Redpyramidhead

And death and injury to countless others


I think the deaths of 100 is a fair trade off for the freedom of a country which consists of thousands and thousands of people.

[BlackThornn]

Estimated Iraqi civillian deaths stand at around 10,000 right now since the heavy fighting and the overwhelming of the hospitals in Baghdad and Basra. The anarchy currently ruling the streets of major Iraqi cities is sure to kill many more until we get our **** together and impose some order.

Estimated Iraqi SOLDIER dead are between 5 and 15,000. Many bodies were buried during "Shock and Awe" and many more are unaccounted for. The numbers of paramilitary deaths as yet remains unclear.

Just a random factoid, the casualties in the Iraqi army (largely forcibly conscripted) in the first Gulf War was 100,000, many of those inflicted when the Iraqis were in full retreat.

I think that the Iraqi people deserve freedom, but they did not deserve to be delivered freedom via a M.O.A.B. or bunker buster, or the 120mm depleted uranium shell of an abrams.. I think that the way this war was conducted and started was wrong, in violation of both American Law and International Law, and unless the Bush administration does a complete turnaround and seriously starts working to make Iraq a bastion of freedom and good quality of life this war will only breed more hatred against the American people.

Of course, I rather doubt that Bush and his neo-conservative, murderous allies will follow through with their promises. But rather abandon Iraq to it's own devices much like they have done in Afghanistan; keeping us in a perpetual state of war so the country doesn't have time before Dubya's next election to realize how much he has ****ed up the country.

Hell, we're already priming Syria and Iran as the next targets. And North Korea is practically clamouring for a war with that crazy little bastard Kim Jong Il as it's regime leader.


EDIT: Spank. Buddy, don't watch FAUX or Sky news, man. It's nothing but a propaganda tool since this american administration has taken over. I'd reccommend Reuters, C-SPAN, or Arab News (http://www.arabnews.com/)

[kittens&cats]

i just can't wait til my brother comes home from the war where
he his right now in iraq and hope the us troops and uk troops
come home soon ..even know i will get spam for this but
i hope saddam is dead

[Sword 4 Hire]

Well I don't about you guys but with this war I'm feeling safer and safer each day, I support all that Bush has done and I sure am proud to be an American

[BlackThornn]

S4H..

Why? I mean.. I'm not being sarcastic, seriously, why do you feel safer? Why do you support "all that Bush has done"..?

Seriously, dude. Please, tell me.

[Vicious_2003]

Ok Black Thorn where do U get your numbers from. Last I checked there was never an official estimation on any figures of Civilian deaths in Iraq . Maybe some numbers thrown around by the Iraqi government but of course thats gonna be complete Bullshit as most reports from them have recently. And there were many reports of the Iraqi government killing their own people and using them as human shields. I respect your opinion because you seem like a well educated man but other than that your anti American views can go strait to hell. It seems like nothing Bush could do would please U because you are bent on putting the American government down at every turn. The war went smoothly, their were casualties and the thousands of grateful and more free than ever iraqis who are chanting "Go U.S !" and "We love Bush" in the streets where they once would have been beaten or killed for such a public display seem to think it was worth it. (Of course the families of the dead civilians may think otherwise, thats what sucks about war) Anyway thats just what I think...in the long and even short run this war was a GREAT thing for the iraqi people assuming they get a government that works with them instead of against them. You say there were better ways to do this effectively Blackthorn !?. Ok what would your plan be genius....maybe you know more about polotics then the people who run this country (Fat chance)

[Preventer Wind]

Do you mean to tell me that there could only be 5 Iraqi soldiers dead? What kind of estimation is that? And if 10,000 civilians have died then that has to be Iraqis killing Iraqis. And what can you do when Iraq moves key targets next heavily populated areas?

And 10,000 is no where close to the number of people the Iraqi government have killed and tortured. What plan would you have imposed? Not go to war and let Saddam have his way? What you are asking for is impossible to give. You want bombs that only destroy the target. You want bullets to only hit enemies. You want every life saved. It can't happen! Open your damn eyes and see what you are saying. You have done nothing but accuse the US of being a nation of lies, deceit, and murderers. I, for one, do not enjoy being called any of those names!

If this war is to breed more hatred then every Iraqi civilian who is filled with joy over this are pretty good actors. If this war had not happened would things in Iraq be different? Would Saddam become a better person? I don't think so. He was given over 10 years to change for the better and he didn't!

[BlackThornn]

I get my numbers from independent news sources, WeaponX. Outside the bush administration's sphere of influence and as closed to unbiased as you can get.

Ever heard of Reuters?

ArabNews (Saudi.. it's very interesting to see the progression of opinion columns from pro-coalition to anti as their correspondent gets further into Iraq)?

5-15000 Iraqi soldier dead comes from the US military estimates added up from CentCom breifing to CentCom breifing.

Civillian casualties are covered very thoroughly by most middle eastern sources, and I chose the most conservative number out of those.

As for me being Anti-American, you can stuff that, kid. I'm anti-Bush because the bastard stole the office from the american people and has lead us into an unjust war, and has worked along with his cabinet and that nazi John Ashcroft to strip away the freedoms of our nation. Have you READ Patriot Act II? That's what's unamerican. I'm excercising and trying to defend our citizen's rights and future safety.

Yes, the war went smoothly, for us. I'm sorry but the fact is the politicians above our army rushed us through it in order to get it over with before public opinion could shift in America like it has for the rest of the world. He had us tearass through the desert and leave our supply lines open to attack, he dropped CLUSTER BOMBS in civillian villiages, and his whole shock and awe campaign has killed thousands.. or did you think all those targets were empty and entirely free of civillians..?


You wanna know my plan? Fine.

1) Wait a further 90 days before having gone to war. Aquiesce in front of the Security Council and Mr. Blix repeatedly and grow more reluctant to do so each time. Then AFTER giving further repeated chances, petition congress to declare war legally at least in this country, instead of just passing some bill that lets the president declare it unilaterally.

2) Do not try and scrape together a rag-tag group of countries and only have three of them fight with us then call it a coalition of the willing. Make being in the coalition mean more than not ACTIVELY FIGHTING FOR SADDAM.

3) Instead of sending over half our army and 3 carrier groups over to stomp a poorly trained, badly equipped dictator's army and spreading our forces out all over the country. Advance over a period of weeks instead of months, set up foward bases to shorten supply lines and not allow Iraqi snipers to harry our convoys.

4) The Iraqi civillians harbor intense feelings of resentment toward us for ABANDONING THEM in 1991 and getting over 200,000 shi'ites killed when they tried to rebel the first time. Instead of bombing the hell out of the cities, cutting off the water and power, and skirting any real combat (Basra for the first week and a half, anyone?) I would drop leaflets the night before our forces advance on the city after a very limited number of surgical missile strikes on truly key targets. Taking out a few key facilities then attacking full force, likely inciting at least some degree of rebellion by showing some clout, would throw the enemy into more dissarray than hitting them repeatedly with thousands and thousands of tons of ordinance, and it would not give them the free tap of propaganda ammunition to spin it to the Iraqi people as a cowardly, merciless assault. Oh, and actually get the Humanitarian Aid to each city as it's liberated. Which would be possible since we instead of blazing over the desert highways established a southern front and took a little while. Open up the Northern front after Basra is eliminated, employ peshmerga help same as we have been.

5) Bombard to elimination for 24/7 the Nebuchadnezzar and Medina divisions (assuming that they were not called further foward in response to the slower progression) in the days before our forces reach the capital. Only these two forces. Then after they're gone drop leaflets over the city and over the republican gaurd positions basically saying simply "We held back.." or something imposing but being clear we're offering a way out. Instead of pandering for surrender for weeks.

6) Drop more leaflets on the city, showing the cities to the south (with already established police forces and utilities!) and urging Iraqis to desert and aid American and British forces. Attack Baghdad same as we did.

7) DON'T LET THE CITY FALL INTO ANARCHY AFTER WE FUCKING LIBERATE IT AND HAVE PRICELESS TREASURES FROM THE DAWN OF CIVILIZATION BE DESTROYED!

8) Tape Dubya's and Rummy's mouths shut. Let Blair do the talking.

9) Actually rebuild the country instead of abandoning it like we did Afghanistan.

[BlackThornn]

Originally posted by Preventer Wind

Do you mean to tell me that there could only be 5 Iraqi soldiers dead? What kind of estimation is that? And if 10,000 civilians have died then that has to be Iraqis killing Iraqis. And what can you do when Iraq moves key targets next heavily populated areas?


I seriously hope you were just being sarcastic.


And 10,000 is no where close to the number of people the Iraqi government have killed and tortured. What plan would you have imposed? Not go to war and let Saddam have his way? What you are asking for is impossible to give. You want bombs that only destroy the target. You want bullets to only hit enemies. You want every life saved. It can't happen! Open your damn eyes and see what you are saying. You have done nothing but accuse the US of being a nation of lies, deceit, and murderers. I, for one, do not enjoy being called any of those names!

That dissent-is-unpatriotic bullshit doesn't phase me, Preventer. I've called the ADMINISTRATION of this country decietful and murderous. Which is true. They DECIEVED the people of this nation into thinking that first we were going to war to stop terrorism.. then to protect ourselves.. then to eliminate weapons of mass destruction.. then to free the people of Iraq. With each excuse coming along after the previous one FELL THROUGH.

The ADMINISTRATION has bullied our country into an illegal war that will stymie our political peacekeeping power for probably generations. The ADMINISTRATION has proved ignorant and insensitive to actually liberating and rebuilding this country and bred even more hatred in the middle east, hatred that will not be taken out against the ruling elite, but against the poor shmucks who got dragged along with it or our troops in the Gulf. OR BOTH.

I don't want everybody to be safe. I'm not naieve enough to believe that is possible, or believe anyone who really knows the situation and has demonstrated as much thinks it's possible.. *coughs*.. I just know that there were better ways to handle this situation after Dumbya threw it out of control, and I know that it was unnecessary before he did so.

If this war is to breed more hatred then every Iraqi civilian who is filled with joy over this are pretty good actors. If this war had not happened would things in Iraq be different? Would Saddam become a better person? I don't think so. He was given over 10 years to change for the better and he didn't!

Oh, please. Quit it with the ridiculous rhetoric. No, Saddam wouldn't have "become a better person", but Liberating the Iraqi people was NOT SO URGENT AS TO IGNORE UN AND US LAW, GO AGAINST THE WILL OF THE COUNTRY, and LEAVE MOST OF IRAQ NOW IN CHAOS BECAUSE WE RUSHED THROUGH THIS. And, if you'll either remember or read what I wrote above.. that was the FIFTH reason the administration gave for invasion. Liberation wasn't our priority, and our war plan reflects that.

[dan da man]

Originally posted by Spank-A-Thon

(an Iraqi insult)


A Arab insult actually.
- S

I watch Sky news and fox news too, Ive always supported the war, to free the Iraqi people, and get rid a Saddam his regime and "W.M.D".



Don't forget the Aussie SAS they've been behind ememy lines doing reconnaissance which has been invaluable and is the most dangerous of jobs in this war.

Yea and the Brits and Amercian special forces too.

Yeah so they will be free soon.

[Sword 4 Hire]

Thornn...your my friend and I am def not looking for a debate with you...well I'd lose but still..

but what I meant was with Saddam's loss of power, I feel that the chances of another 9/11 or some other form of attack on our soils is greatly reduced, and plus with Iraqi's freedom its making the entire middle east a safer place as well, but I know that Iraq isn't the enitre problem, but I viewed it as the top...I'm for this war cause I want an end to all this bullshit we're always hearing about in the news about all these suicide bombings and other form of pety attacks, and war seems like it's the only way to accomplish it...

You can try to change my mind though but I'm standing firm with my ideas, so there would really be point, sorry man thats just how I feel

[Preventer Wind]

The reasons for going to war have been the same since we went to war in Afghanistan. Those reasons are STILL true. We are in war to prevent further terrorism to the Iraqi people which goes along with freeing the Iraqi people and protecting ourselves. We destroy the weapons of mass destruction while going through. If liberation was not the plan then a lot more people could be dead.

If you really think your strategy is the best one why don't you join the army? If you really think your plan has no faults then I say you are full of yourself. I'm not saying the Coalition's plan was perfect, no plan is perfect.

And you have not only called the government murderers, scandals, and liars, but you have called every war supporter out there those names! You have called them ignorant, careless, and selfless. And what further makes me angry is this:

Originally posted by BlackThornn
I don't want everybody to be safe. I'm not naieve enough to believe that is possible, or believe anyone who really knows the situation and has demonstrated as much thinks it's possible.. *coughs*.. I just know that there were better ways to handle this situation after Dumbya threw it out of control, and I know that it was unnecessary before he did so.


You are nothing more then hypocrite! You don't want everybody to be safe? You totally go against this war and now you have your own plan of attack. I for one want everybody to be safe, though I know it can not happen. What makes it different if you give them 90 more days? If people are really that stupid that they need leaflets to tell them to run then that I am shocked. How do you know the deserters would not have been shot in the back? It's happened and there were no leaflets. You said yourself Saddam would not change. And what is this about let Blair do the talking? You hate him too, am I not right?

And if you think Bush came up with the battle strategy then you are giving him a HUGE complement. I, for one, think that it was a good strategy. You are crazy to think that other countries should have fought in the war. It would just send people who do not have the training or the equipment to fight and die. It would just slow down the Coalition forces. What the hell is the point in having all this technology for the single purpose of war if you are not going to use it when you go to war?

I think that there are worse strategies to go about this war. I read a number of strategies before the war started and after. Some predicted a lot of Coalition troops being killed in combat. Some went as far as using nukes if a chemical attack happened. As far as I know there have not been a substantial amount of Coalition troops killed. I think blazing through was the right strategy. It was clearly not looked for and it has saved Iraq by keeping most of their oil fields in tact. I think oil is more important to the rebuilding of Iraq then some artifacts. Oil, after all, is from the dawn of civilization.

[Sword 4 Hire]

...can't we all just talk about videogames again...

[BlackThornn]

Originally posted by Sword 4 Hire

Thornn...your my friend and I am def not looking for a debate with you...well I'd lose but still..

but what I meant was with Saddam's loss of power, I feel that the chances of another 9/11 or some other form of attack on our soils is greatly reduced, and plus with Iraqi's freedom its making the entire middle east a safer place as well, but I know that Iraq isn't the enitre problem, but I viewed it as the top...I'm for this war cause I want an end to all this bullshit we're always hearing about in the news about all these suicide bombings and other form of pety attacks, and war seems like it's the only way to accomplish it...

You can try to change my mind though but I'm standing firm with my ideas, so there would really be point, sorry man thats just how I feel

I'm not looking for a debate with you either, bud. Unfortunately I kind of get dragged into them in threads that I did not intend to debate in. *COUGHS*Preventer*COUGHS*

And maybe, if we really follow through on Iraq's reconstruction (I'm banking on a new administration in a year for this to happen) and then follow through with the plan calling for a Palestinian state within three years and force that warmonger Sharon back, maybe we can have peace, and we'll be safer.. But that really all depends on everything going right and the Arab community changing their own propaganda to try and get peace for their people.

I was going to comment about the President's new "warnings" to Syria, and how familiar they feel, but I'm not.

The reasons for going to war have been the same since we went to war in Afghanistan. Those reasons are STILL true. We are in war to prevent further terrorism to the Iraqi people which goes along with freeing the Iraqi people and protecting ourselves. We destroy the weapons of mass destruction while going through. If liberation was not the plan then a lot more people could be dead.

More propaganda from our own government. And very thin at that. If you had LISTENED to the situation when we were being steered toward this comment you would have seen exactly what most of the international community has seen; that being more different reasons for going here than divisions of troops we have sent to quell the regime. We had to root around for some camp of terrorists that is not associated with Al Quaeda or any attacks against US soil, just to "justify" our being there to root out terrorists.

Al Quaeda and Osama Bin Laden WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED TOGETHER. Saddam's government and person was secular, Osama's a religions fanatic. They hate each other.

Don't even get me started on "WMD"s in Iraq. We've found a few drums of pesticide, some chem suits, a few empty rockets, and had to break international seals to find any signifigant degree of Uranium in drums.

If you really think your strategy is the best one why don't you join the army? If you really think your plan has no faults then I say you are full of yourself. I'm not saying the Coalition's plan was perfect, no plan is perfect.

Oh just shut the hell up already. I never said that my "plan" was perfect. I said that it would net a better effect than what we're doing now. And the fact is that the "coalition" has PROFESSIONALS working at this, and they should have done a hell of a lot better job than they have been with damage control.

And you have not only called the government murderers, scandals, and liars, but you have called every war supporter out there those names! You have called them ignorant, careless, and selfless. And what further makes me angry is this:

When did I do that? Moron. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that the majority of those who are supporting the war NOW are buying into the government's propaganda of a sanitized conflict with lots of cheering faces and no resentment or thousands of innocent deaths. Just like there is only a very small percentage of people on the left who wish harm to the soldiers and don't wish for this plan to succeed to at least some small degree, there is only a very small percentage of people who are in control of the conservative agenda and are wanting to rape this country of it's oil/stomp on some ragheads, etc.

You are nothing more then hypocrite! You don't want everybody to be safe? You totally go against this war and now you have your own plan of attack. I for one want everybody to be safe, though I know it can not happen. What makes it different if you give them 90 more days? If people are really that stupid that they need leaflets to tell them to run then that I am shocked. How do you know the deserters would not have been shot in the back? It's happened and there were no leaflets. You said yourself Saddam would not change. And what is this about let Blair do the talking? You hate him too, am I not right?

Jesus you're pathetic, you can't even debate without making shit up and trying to attack my character. I don't want everyone safe 'cause I know everyone can't be safe in a conflict. Oh, and then there's the fact that I don't want Saddam or his tyrant family safe, or his fanatical, murderous fedayeen safe, etc.

90 more days in two 45 day extension blocks would have repaired our image. Making us appear at LEAST more willing to have let the inspection teams work and disarm Saddam without violence. And it would have made France, Germany, Russia, and China seem like THEY were the ones in the wrong for continually flat-out vetoing any action. That, coupled with CONGRESSIONAL CONSENT TO GO TO THIS PARTICULAR WAR INSTEAD OF JUST PERMISSION TO THE PRESIDENT TO UNILATERALLY DECLARE IT, would have made the US at least seem more reluctant to have actually taken this to fighting and put Iraqi citizens and US soldiers in harm's way.

And if you think Bush came up with the battle strategy then you are giving him a HUGE complement. I, for one, think that it was a good strategy. You are crazy to think that other countries should have fought in the war. It would just send people who do not have the training or the equipment to fight and die. It would just slow down the Coalition forces. What the hell is the point in having all this technology for the single purpose of war if you are not going to use it when you go to war?

It's painfully clear that you don't even read anything thoroughly that you reply to. I've made constant references to the ADMINISTRATION, not to BUSH.

And while the US Army is the best equipped and best trained on the planet, it's nothing but arrogance and ignorance to think that there isn't another army on the planet that could have handled this with the US and the British. Oh, and those 3000 australians, and that one polish jeep driver.

"What the hell is the point of having all this technology for the single purpose of war if you are not going to use it when you go to war?" You're fucking kidding, right? You warmonger. Just 'cause you've got huge stockpiles of tomahawk missiles doesn't mean you should blow EVERYTHING UP once you get into a military action with them. GOD, I can't even believe you're so ignorant about the human cost of these things.

I think that there are worse strategies to go about this war. I read a number of strategies before the war started and after. Some predicted a lot of Coalition troops being killed in combat. Some went as far as using nukes if a chemical attack happened. As far as I know there have not been a substantial amount of Coalition troops killed. I think blazing through was the right strategy. It was clearly not looked for and it has saved Iraq by keeping most of their oil fields in tact. I think oil is more important to the rebuilding of Iraq then some artifacts. Oil, after all, is from the dawn of civilization.

You read some strategies? By this sudden influx of retired officers as analysts for news coroporations? :sarcasm:

Watching a little flash movie on "Urban Warfare" saying that there could be signifigant coalition casualties, then listening to an audio of some nutbag saying that we should NUKE THE COUNTRY.

Y'know what? To hell with this. I back up my arguments with facts and provide sources, you just spout rhetoric and character attacks. I'm done arguing with you when you can't even field a decent, logical debate.

You've made it to the ignore list. Congratulations! *pops new years bottle poppers and throws confetti*

[Vicious_2003]

I think Blackthorn that maybe you should look at this from the point of the Iraqi people and not from your point. You see you sit at home safe as can be barely being affected by this war at all yet you act as though your opinion is LAW. The truth is have this war be told afterwards. After the threats to the iraqi people have been eliminated. Then ask them how they feel about the war . Id bet anything they will be happy as can be...thats what happens when U get freed after 30 plus years of Oppression. They are in Iraq living like thier sub human while U sit at home and whine/bitch/moan about the war that has little effect on you in comparison to the people actually in Iraq. The soldiers we send over their SIGNED up to be in the army understanding full well what they were getting themselves into. I respect them like no others for that but I dont feel sorry for them having to go to war, thats THERE JOB. If the tables were turned and we were the truly oppressed ones I bet Ud feel completely different about this. Instead of throwing around BS lies like "Bush stole the presidency" youd be begging another country who was blessed with wealth and a good economy to help you out a little. I dont think the strategy would matter much to you would it . The freedom of thousands is more important than the lives of a few 100..thats what I believe. This war will have eternally positive effects for the world. (Especially Iraq). So try and have some empathy put your self in an iraqi civilians shoes who wants their children to have a better life than they did . But seing as how your freedoms never been threatened you wouldn't be able to I guess . Many of us have been spoiled by freedom so much so that we think we have to express it as much as possible and as strongly as possible. You take yourself FAR to seriously Thorn. If you feel your right(And better at polotics than the people that run the U.S) ..become a politician and make those changes happen. Untill then your opinions are nothing more than that OPINIONS (Not Fact) Realize that.

P.S And also......I dont trust your silly little "reports" that come out of iraqi news organization that could be and very likely are still under the influence of Saddams regime. Im sure The U.S killed thousands upon thousands of irqi civilians . Give me a fucking break . You believe these unofficial iraqi sources that come out of no where...come on !. Pull your head out of your ass for just a second. And also...no one dragged you into this debate my friend you posted your opinion as if it were LAW and all anyone else has done is posted theres in response to your outrageous stance. Also Blackthorn I apologize if you take any of the above as a personal offense because I dont mean to turn this Debate into a fullblown argument or personal front ;)

[Preventer Wind]

Here are my sources that I read of the War Strategies:

http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/722115/posts

http://ia.clickondetroit.com/news/1879592/detail.html

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.29A.Iraq.Invasion.htm

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/rsepResources/si/aug02/middleEast.asp

http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/100702.html

I lost another good link, but 5 should be enough. These are not the best, most respected or trusted websites, but they do offer support of what they said. I am not saying I believe everything here, because I don't. But you wanted to know my sources and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

And the planning of the rebuilding of Iraq has started: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=RBONRYM2BA2LCCRBAEKSF FA?type=worldNews&storyID=2563438

Not a lot but it still has started. I just hope we don't put another dictator on the hill.

Originally posted by BlackThornn
I just know that there were better ways to handle this situation after Dumbya threw it out of control, and I know that it was unnecessary before he did so.

You saying that "Dumbya threw it out of control..." implies that it was he that took the plan and made it worse.

And I have read every post in this thread. Some more then once. I do my research before every post, you can ask a friend.

And let me further state that you have indeed called a lot of American's ignorant. If you do believe that Bush stole the presidency you are saying right there that most US citizens are ignorant by believing in a system and being taken advantage of. This was not the first or second time some one has won the election like that. There are other incidents too...

And what I meant by "What the hell is the point of having all this technology for the single purpose of war if you are not going to use it when you go to war?" is that if we have weapons like that why should we allow other countries get involved when we have much better weapons already made. Not that we should fire every single missile or drop every single bomb in our arsenal. It is careless and expensive.

Name an allied country that has the technology and weapons to stand up to the US and British?

Any way this war is about over and it makes no sense to defend it when it is over. Neither of us are going to change our opinions so it is senseless to continue on. If you have anything you want to say then PM me. The only thing that Saddam can do would more then justify war...

[BlackThornn]

Originally posted by Weapon_XZ84

I think Blackthorn that maybe you should look at this from the point of the Iraqi people and not from your point. You see you sit at home safe as can be barely being affected by this war at all yet you act as though your opinion is LAW. The truth is have this war be told afterwards. After the threats to the iraqi people have been eliminated. Then ask them how they feel about the war . Id bet anything they will be happy as can be...thats what happens when U get freed after 30 plus years of Oppression. They are in Iraq living like thier sub human while U sit at home and whine/bitch/moan about the war that has little effect on you in comparison to the people actually in Iraq.[/b]

I really fail to see where I'm putting forth my opinion as law. It's called debating, man. That's how it works. Aquiescing to an opinion you don't believe in isn't in the handbook

And don't get me wrong, it warms my heart to see Iraqis dancing in the streets with freedom bestowed upon them after Saddam.. But I think that if they are grateful to America after this is all over it will only be somewhat. We've annihilated a good deal of the country with our smart weapons and killed thousands of civillians.. we've let looters destroy or steal priceless pieces of mankind's past after promising to defend the museum.. then sent our soldiers to protect the MINISTRY OF OIL.. instead of asking the regime not to put innocent people in the path of our war machine in it's defensive operations Bush asked for them to NOT SET THE OIL WELLS ON FIRE. I look at it from an Arab viewpoint, and an Iraqi viewpoint.. and the general public, as well as history, will judge us harshly for our actions, despite the net effect.

The soldiers we send over their SIGNED up to be in the army understanding full well what they were getting themselves into. I respect them like no others for that but I dont feel sorry for them having to go to war, thats THERE JOB. If the tables were turned and we were the truly oppressed ones I bet Ud feel completely different about this.

What does this have to do with anything? Yes, in a professional army they know that they must go over there and be put in harm's way; but the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is supposed to moderate his use of the army since he knows that lives will END on both sides because of the actions he takes.

And what about being "truly" oppressed? What kind of malarky is that? The reason I'm so up in arms is because the Bush administration is laying the groundwork to strip the rights from American citizens with things like The US PATRIOT ACT. and it's son Patriot Act II. And were I being "truly" oppressed I would be voicing my outrage from Victoria, Canada.

Instead of throwing around BS lies like "Bush stole the presidency" youd be begging another country who was blessed with wealth and a good economy to help you out a little. I dont think the strategy would matter much to you would it.

No, I'd be fighting to restore the freedoms of this country, 'cause the true ideals of the constitution and freedom are something I would die for.

The freedom of thousands is more important than the lives of a few 100..thats what I believe. This war will have eternally positive effects for the world.

Now who's touting their opinion as law? Who are you to say that the death of a few THOUSAND (that's right, add another zero, buddy) is worth the supposed freedom of the rest of Iraq? How is it worth it when they're noncombatants? Are you going to explain that to the families of those who died? Maybe to the additional thousands of wounded..?

So try and have some empathy put your self in an iraqi civilians shoes who wants their children to have a better life than they did . But seing as how your freedoms never been threatened you wouldn't be able to I guess . Many of us have been spoiled by freedom so much so that we think we have to express it as much as possible and as strongly as possible. You take yourself FAR to seriously Thorn.

I do put myself in an Iraqi civillian's shoes. And I see that Iraqi civillian as not wanting to lose his history to looting, not to be in danger from the anarchy that is just now coming under some modicum of control, and I would not want to have been "liberated" by a three week US bombardment that saw likely at least a friend or two killed or wounded.

And yes, we do need to express our freedoms as much and as strongly as possible because they are in danger of being usurped by the current administration. See my post about Patriot Act II in the Pearl Jam Controversy thread for what I'm talking about.

I take myself seriously because these are serious matters, WeaponX. I, for one, refuse to stand idly by while the ideals people have died to protect are softened up to be removed by the government in the name of protecting us from some ubiquitous terrorist group (that by the definition of Patriot Act II, could be any political group that the Attorney General, John Ashcroft, deems).

If you feel your right(And better at polotics than the people that run the U.S) ..become a politician and make those changes happen. Untill then your opinions are nothing more than that OPINIONS (Not Fact) Realize that.

I do realize that. My posts here are all opinions and beliefs, I have never put them forth as otherwise (except for the FACTS I've posted about George Bush and the current administration). Assuming is much is just that on your part; an assumption. Though I daresay I seem to be more informed about the situation than most of those I debate with. Probably because as of late I've obsessed over the facts to piece together an image of the truth.


Originally posted by Weapon_XZ84
P.S And also......I dont trust your silly little "reports" that come out of iraqi news organization that could be and very likely are still under the influence of Saddams regime. Im sure The U.S killed thousands upon thousands of irqi civilians . Give me a fucking break . You believe these unofficial iraqi sources that come out of no where...come on !. Pull your head out of your ass for just a second. And also...no one dragged you into this debate my friend you posted your opinion as if it were LAW and all anyone else has done is posted theres in response to your outrageous stance. Also Blackthorn I apologize if you take any of the above as a personal offense because I dont mean to turn this Debate into a fullblown argument or personal front ;)

I've got the reply to the rest of this written out on another computer, so I'll post that later as an edit to this message. I'll just say for now that my "Saddam controlled" arab sources that you think are so silly are from Saudi Arabia (Pro US), Kuwait (Pro US) and Al-Jazeera (kicked out of Iraq for "spreading US PROPAGANDA by Saddam's regime). And they SHOW the overcrowded hospital hallways and bloodied corpses of children in Baghdad, Al Kut, Basra, Najaf, An Nassiriya and other places inside Iraq. Were I to believe suspected Iraqi propaganda I would have posted by now about the "warehouse" in Kuwait that holds 800 body-bagged US Soldiers, supposedly only one of many. :sarcasm: Who's head is in who's ass? I'm open to the big picture, WeaponX. Not just what Faux news or MSNBC places in front of me (though I watch those extensively as well).

Your little quip about my opinion being law I've already writen about, and will post later. Let's just say you misunderstand my writings seriously.

EDIT1: I've decided to add a little humor to another discussion about war.

Hilarious. (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com)

I'm going to get the "No infidels will pour coffee in this mug! EVER!" coffee mug. :D

[Vicious_2003]

Heh. I read that the site you linked to got soo many hits in its first day of existence that the server got bogged down and they had to move. Funny stuff. But sense this debate is clearly not going anywhere Ill just say a few closing words. blackthorn, You make these claims you hear from AlJezeera* and other sources . Until proven I dont believe for one second that the U.S killed that many Iraqi Civilians and until it is absolutely proven I dont see how U can say that either, or use it to support your "Un substantial claims" that apparently we went on a civilian killing rampage in Iraq. You have no IDEA if those reports hold water so why do you form your opinions based on them ?. I believe what I see. When I see thousands of Iraqis dancing and rejoicing, beating up pictures of Saddam I believe THAT not some reports out of Al Jazzera who are famous for spouting Iraqi Propaganda. I cant necessarily say your wrong but I say innocent untill Proven guilty...when CNN/Fox News/Any Official Credible News station out of a non biast country reports that the U.S is responsible for well over 500,000 (You said 100,000 HAH !) civilian deaths then I might believe it. But I dont give a rats ass about what comes out of Al Jazeera. Weren't they the station that aired pictures of bloody tortured American POW's !? Oh yeah real fu*ing respectable (Doesent that just scream "controlled by Saddams Regime") . Bottom Line ......"THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS" . And its funny you have dogged Bush at every turn in this forum yet I dont hear U criticizing the iraqi Regime perhaps your a fan ;) Kidding. Also in regards to your statements about Iraqs precious Historical artifacts. Dont you think that the U.S troops in Iraq have more important things to tend to than people stealing things from unused government buildings ?. For Christ sakes there are still patches of resistance....and hundreds of possible suicide bombers within iraq. Thier are more important security matters to be dealt with first.....or perhaps to U a few ancient pieces of furniture are worth more than the lives of our troops and the civilians of iraq ? (also Thorn thanks for keeping it civil, all too often people get carried away in debates about important subject matter. Its good to debate someone who can keep a level head. Perhaps my telling you to pull your head out of your ass was a lapse on my part in restraint I should have found a better way to put it );)

[BlackThornn]

(You said 100,000 HAH !)

I said that the FIRST Gulf War had 100,000 Iraqi soldier deaths, and those were the forcibly conscripted army units, not the republican gaurd (which Saddam held back).

What I said about civillian casualties in THIS war were in the TENS of THOUSANDS.

Also.. if you really think CNN or Faux news is not as much of a propaganda tool as you think Al Jazeera is.... let me just say you're sadly mistaken.

You don't trust Al-Jazeera, try Reuters. (http://www.reuters.com/)

And its funny you have dogged Bush at every turn in this forum yet I dont hear U criticizing the iraqi Regime perhaps your a fan

You've provided the very reason I dog bush at every turn. Too many people say this and aren't kidding in this country. This is the very reason that I'm so alarmed and shocked about things such as the Patriot Act.

For Christ sakes there are still patches of resistance....and hundreds of possible suicide bombers within iraq

I'm painfully aware of this fact. The point of most of my arguments concerning our policy in Iraq is we're shooting up a van full of civillians and children a day and breeding even more hatred, resistance, and suicide bombers. Even the american news organizations bent on reporting a completely sanitized war report these incedents.


To be honest I'm getting really tired of arguing these things on this board. I won't be replying further.

[Infernal Mass]

http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/147/659/10x7/030403_war_08.jpg


Digi
- :laugh:

[Vicious_2003]

And they said that it was the first batch of PS2s that contained materials used in war. Now we see the truth ... the GBA is the true weapon of WAR !;) . Probably using it to fill his daily quota of Civilian murders as Blackthorn said :laugh: (J/K)

[BlackThornn]

*laughs* Good ol' DigiMortal. :laugh: