Where have all the Guitar Heroes gone?

[Spank-A-Thon]

I love rock and metal, I've been listening for over 15 years and love stuff from 70's rock, to 80's hair metal and thrash to newer 'nu-metal'. But there's one thing that really separates the rock/metal of the last couple of years from the earlier stuff...

Guitar solos...

And by that, I mean good guitar solo's. In the late 70's you had Jimmy Page, Hendrix, Clapton. In the 80's you had Eddie Van Halen, Joe Satriani, Randy Rhodes. In the early 90's you had Kirk Hammet, Kerry King and Steve Vai.

Who do we have in the late 90's/early 00's? No one - there are no more guitar heroes. Most (although not all) newer rock and metal don't even have a guitar solo!

As well as being something for a guitarist to show off his skills, a lot of solos were beautifully crafted and added emotion to a song. Others were nothing more than, excuse my french, a fret wank... But still, the guitar solo was a crucial part of any rock/metal song.

I miss guitar solos. I miss seeing interviews with guitar gods in magazines. I miss the exuberance and decadence these solos would sometimes exemplify.

I blame Kurt Cobain for this. There is no doubt in my mind that he popularised a simpler form of guitar playing. Ever since Nevermind had the success it did, the majority of rock/nu-metal tracks have displayed a simpler form of guitar playing. Kurt Cobain made it okay to simply sweep through chord sequences, rather than playing a riff.

I really miss the Guitar Heroes. Does anyone else feel the same? Perhaps some of you see guitar solos as nothing more than a relic of the past. Anyways, I'd love to hear your thoughts whether you agree or not.

In the meantime, I'm gonna go and listen to some 80's metal... My Air Guitar is primed and ready to rock!

- S

[MakgSnake]

I love playing the guitar, but I devoted myself into it in the year 1997. So I havn't got any real background on the best of guitarist.

But my fav guitarists of all time are "Salman Ahmed" and "Amir Zakki"....... they simply rock!! Blows my mind.

[Uchiha Sasuke]

Yeah alot of the greats have left.Its sad not to hear any real captivating leads anymore.We still have some great guitarist out there like richie sambora of bon jovi and kirk hammet of metallica,but yes the just of them are gone.But there are some that will be greats,espically if you look at Mark Tremonti of Creed.The guy is a phemonal solo guitarist.Even though he is the only guitarist in the band (just like page of zepplin) he pulls off great leads.I'm not talking about the stuff on there cd's,its the stuff he does in concert,which is absolutley beautiful and stylish.Truthfully he's the best guitarist i heard overall.Other than that i havent heard anyone else that does a good as a job that he does that is from this generation of music.Hopefully there will be a rise of the guitar heroes again in the future.I'm surely aiming to be one if i make it into the business.

[Faile]

In terms of riffs Kurt Cobain created the best riff ever. Everybody in the world practically knows smells like teen spirit.

Also, songs such as All Apologies and Come as you are have amazingly good riffs. Just because he isn't using anything more than pentatonic scales in his solos doesn't make them any less valid.

Grunge was the movement that had to happen to save us from all the poor music of before. Steve Vai plays amazing solos but can you hum anything by him ? All the fret work doesn't make his music anything more than technically impressive.

Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins plays amazing lead guitar, he has been called the alternative Eddie Van Halen, but he isn't annoying with it, no pumpkins song has pure fret work.

Today you have bands such as dream theatre and the like, technically impressive, but in terms of song structure and pure rawness and feeling fall way behind all the alternative bands.

In the same way the 70's punk movement helped move away from the legacy of the beatles, post-punk helped us move away from the poor turgid hair metal of the 80's.

[Pu the Owl]

All these "old school" solo artists no longer exist you say? Well, it's not completely true. It's just that New styles are born in the meantime and even if you call it a "simpler" style, they at least gave us the possibility to listen to something new and "fresh".
I'll take Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth as an example: his way of playing the guitar is really different from the artists you mentioned, his style is surely newer and nearly impossible to be copied even for the talented solo artists you love so much, and yeah, it's really original and somewhat "experimental" too. Someone said he's the one who invented "Noise Rock", and critics attached this label to this way of playing the guitar. You may not like this style, but you can't say he's unable to play a guitar.
There are many clones of the metal hard rock sound and such things, and they're simply boring mostly because they add nothing to what we've already heard. They lack of any kind of originality. Why? Because their main interest is simply to show off their talent and nothing more. They can play, of course, but they don't create anything valuable. Is it so good for you?
Don't blame Cobain, please, this is another old cliché: he created his style, while the others copied it without knowing what the style was about.

[Harry]

My dear S,

this is probably the only post from the beginning of this forums that made me, well, let's say it, furious.

You blame Kurt Cobain for what? Because finally, after years and years of music made of guitar solos that were just there to show how technically good was a band, someone was able to really express his inner self without pretending of being adored as a guitar god. And all this hate towards Cobain of all those hard-rock metal guys are so pointless; if there is one humble personality in the history of rock music that is Cobain.
He never wanted to be a mentor, a guide - he felt like he was there by chance, for a strange destiny, in the same spot of the charts where a macho band like Guns'n Roses used to be. Looking back at his songs, after ten years, you can still feel his rage, his love, his loneliness, that loneliness that each of us has inside, the loneliness that made this life terrible and terribly beautiful, but that Van Halen is so unable to express with his memorable solos. If there is a music that stays there, in all its nude sincerity, and that can teach our god-like star system (that affects also the supposedly alternative word of metal bands) something, that is the music of Nirvana. Unique, unrepeatable, pure in its simplicity yet so full of a thing that artists seem to forget: humanity.

And saying that Kurt Cobain wasn't a great guitarists is non-sense. He had his unique style, then copied by thousands - he was all in one with his guitar, and he was one of the most impressive noise guitarists of all times. Thurston Moore, also on my opinion the greatest guitarist of our time and one of the most open minded artists in the music industry, was fascinated by Cobain's style, and not by chance.

Is it possible that all those songs say nothing to you? Did you actually listen All Apologies, Heart Shaped Box, Something in The Way? Van Hallen? Steve Vai? Joe Satriani (oh, how many memorable songs we all remember of this great artist, I sing them all in my head, every day)? Great guitarists, poor artists.

S, you could have said anything about any other guitarists, but you hit Cobain, and that's coward and - can I say that? - ignorant.

Thanks Cobain, thanks Nirvana.

[Mercury Shadow]

I'm pretty opinionated when it comes to talented guitarist so I'd probably go write a book if I read through all the posts...

I just have to say this... your comment on "nu metal" not having solos and such, it's probabably because KoRn started the nu metal revolution and they are seriously not talented musicians. Many guitarists and musicians could relate to them and liked their simple music so they copied them or did variatians of their music. The only solos they have are crappy wah solos which is pretty much jus using a wah pedal and stretching some strings :sarcasm:

It's not that solos arent around anymore in in the 90s/00s, it's that the mainstream or popular music dont have many solos, with the exception of a few bands. I listen to a lot of underground, well not really underground but nothing most people have heard of, and there are tons of solos that're very memorible. I suggest listening to Nevermore, Arch Enemy and Soilwork (especially soilwork's song Structure Divine, my favorite solo ever). Also Meshuggah has some pretty trippy, experimental solos (not on their new album but on Destroy, Erase, Improve & Chaosphere there are some pretty kick ass ones).

Harry, I know some solos may be rediculously thrown in so the crowd goes, "WHOOOOO!! YOU GUYS ROCK! (holds up fists)." But the guitarists who truly know how to make it work, can make a soulful part that overshadows the rest of the song. On the Kurt Cobain subject, I really don't think Cobain is a talented guitarist. He's a good song writer and has REALLY good guitar parts, but they just arent very special. Smells Like Teen Spirit consits of 2 notes during the verse and a lame barre chord chorus like most of their songs. I'm not saying this is particularly bad by all means, but isnt for me anymore.

But it's really a shame that solos aren't as popular anymore :sarcasm: Metallica's old work like Ride The Lightening and Master of Puppets amazed me when I started learning to play guitar. And Kerry King rules :)

[Faile]

harry and fortune, i agree.

bless nirvana and sonic youth for offering us something wonderful in music.

[Spank-A-Thon]

It would seem my view is somewhat unpopular, however, allow me to counter various points from a few of the replies.

Originally posted by Faile
In terms of riffs Kurt Cobain created the best riff ever. Everybody in the world practically knows smells like teen spirit.

Agreed that SLTS is one of the all time great rocks songs. It will probably be known as one of the songs that defined a generation.

Also, songs such as All Apologies and Come as you are have amazingly good riffs. Just because he isn't using anything more than pentatonic scales in his solos doesn't make them any less valid.

I never stated any of Nirvana's work was not valid. As for good riffs, compared to others they are, compared to other's they're not. Simply depends on taste.

Grunge was the movement that had to happen to save us from all the poor music of before. Steve Vai plays amazing solos but can you hum anything by him ? All the fret work doesn't make his music anything more than technically impressive.

You simply cannot state that the music that came before grunge as poor. There are millions of Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, Zepplin, Van Halen, etc fans who would strongly disagree. Grunge was an evolution of the decadent 80's. Hair metal, etc epitomised 80's LA and the sleaze of that era. Grunge reflected the more down to earth, angst ridden Seattle scene. There will always be people who see merit in one phase and not another... I'm fortunate in that I have manged to span several phases that have all appealed to me (well, except Dance music).

In the same way the 70's punk movement helped move away from the legacy of the beatles, post-punk helped us move away from the poor turgid hair metal of the 80's.

For nearly every phase of music, there has always been the antithesis that follows it - but each phase has it's merits and bad points. Again I would not express 80's hair metal as turgid, there are still a lot of people who like it.

All these "old school" solo artists no longer exist you say? Well, it's not completely true. It's just that New styles are born in the meantime and even if you call it a "simpler" style, they at least gave us the possibility to listen to something new and "fresh".

I know this, I meant it simply wasn't mainstream anymore.


I'll take Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth as an example: his way of playing the guitar is really different from the artists you mentioned, his style is surely newer and nearly impossible to be copied even for the talented solo artists you love so much, and yeah, it's really original and somewhat "experimental" too. Someone said he's the one who invented "Noise Rock", and critics attached this label to this way of playing the guitar. You may not like this style, but you can't say he's unable to play a guitar.

I am very familiar with Sonic Youth and certainly would never say, nor have I said, he can't play.


There are many clones of the metal hard rock sound and such things, and they're simply boring mostly because they add nothing to what we've already heard. They lack of any kind of originality. Why? Because their main interest is simply to show off their talent and nothing more. They can play, of course, but they don't create anything valuable. Is it so good for
you?

I agree that there are many, many clones who think technique is all - I don't subscribe to that at all. Rush are probably one of the most technically sound bands alive, but I can't stand them - I want to hear songs, not purely demos of technical talent. Other bands have managed to blend technical prowess with great songs too though.

Don't blame Cobain, please, this is another old cliché: he created his style, while the others copied it without knowing what the style was about.

That's my point, Cobain created a monster which too many cheap rate bands were quick to jump on to. But similarly I blame the Beatles for spawning the numerous cheap 'Merseybeat' clones. Anytime someone 'invents' a genre, other always try to imitate.

My dear S,
this is probably the only post from the beginning of this forums that made me, well, let's say it, furious.

Furious? That's somewhat strong isn't it? I merely offered an opinion to garner feedback.

You blame Kurt Cobain for what? Because finally, after years and years of music made of guitar solos that were just there to show how technically good was a band, someone was able to really express his inner self without pretending of being adored as a guitar god.

Yes, I blame Cobain for what he helped create. Cobain created primarily lyrical songs - he expressed his emotions through his lyrics and song dynamics. In terms of pure technical ability, he is way down the list. But song-writing is not simply about technique - it's about connecting with your listener - which is something he excelled at. However, as a result there were too many 'clones' who thought they could do the same thing - which meant we were bombarded with simple repetitive guitar playing with inane thoughtless lyrics slapped on top. These Nirvana wannabees totally missed the point of his music. Without Cobain, there wouldn't have been all these poor imitators.

To say I'm disappointed at some of the comments made would be an understand. I did not realise that posting an opinion that may not be in the majority would be wrong. To be told I know nothing, am ignorant and a coward is frankly disappointing - especially given who voiced those accusations.

Is it really so wrong to want that, even if it's just once? Is it so wrong to want a new guitar hero?

Note by Harry: Sorry, the forum merged two threads in one, and I tried reconstructing desperately your post going into the database. This should do it.

[Faile]

no post-cobain guitarists are poor. you merely consider them poor.

i equally consider vai and van halen to be poor guitarists because they have no songs that mean a single thing to me.

[Harry]

Yes, I blame Cobain for what he helped create. Cobain created primarily lyrical songs - he expressed his emotions through his lyrics and song dynamics. In terms of pure technical ability, he is way down the list. But song-writing is not simply about technique - it's about connecting with your listener - which is something he excelled at. However, as a result there were too many 'clones' who thought they could do the same thing - which meant we were bombarded with simple repetitive guitar playing with inane thoughtless lyrics slapped on top. These Nirvana wannabees totally missed the point of his music. Without Cobain, there wouldn't have been all these poor imitators.

Blame the clones then, not the original. It's like saying you hate Beatles because you hate many of their terrible clones (edit: ooops, you did that), or that you hate Beethoven for its influence over the musicians that followed him and copied ungracefully his style. It doesn't make any sense at all.

A lot of hard rock guys do hate Cobain - however I'm not one of them. I understand what he did, I connected with his stuff. The first time I heard Teen Spirit I was captivated - although not as much as others were. It was fresh, it was new, it was exciting - but then came Epsiode II - Attack of the Clones....

That was impossible to be seen from your post. What I didn't like was the the cynism with which you blamed Cobain, not your personal opinions; I completely respect an opinion when it comes in the form Mercury Shadow expressed it (leaving aside that lame referred to a poor barré chord :laugh: ).

I was there when Nirvana happened. I was 17/18 when they broke out big time. I listened and I liked. I heard what happened afterwards, and how those who didn't understand tried to ride his coat-tails. No one can ever say I didn't listen to Nirvana - I was his target audience. I was there for the rise of grunge, and I was there for the fall of it. How many Nirvana 'fans' can say that? I am merely speaking from experience.

Again, in your post all this was was completely hidden. If you loved Nirvana, or any other band, why should you talk of them in a way they don't deserve?

And as for ignorance, that's a pathetic statement to make. I don't know how old people are on these boards, but I lived through the grunge era. Whilst a lot of Nirvana fans were still too young to even go to school, I was in rock clubs dancing to Nirvana, Mudhoney, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden et al. I take great offence at those charges of ignorance and cowardice. I saw firsthand how his music affected my friends - and I saw their anger at those who diluted his legacy. I saw my friends cry when he died, yet saw those same people take comfort in his music.

I respect your personal experience, but the ignorance in your post was in blaming an artist for a whole style that then was created around that artist. It's exactly like blaming Monet because painters fascinated by his style started to care less about shapes and geometry and more about the suggestion of colors. It doesn't make any sense at all to me, am I wrong?

I wasn't speaking of ignorance in terms of opinions or knowledge.

But this thread was about Guitar Heroes, not Song Heroes.

I not agree with you when you say we can't consider Cobain a guitarist; he was the only guitar in his band for a long time, and I consider a real guitarist every player who create his style of playing. The ones who just follow the rules of technique and never experiment, are just performers for me, but I guess this is a matter of personal priorities. There are so many post-Cobain guitar heroes

Anyhow, accepting that Cobain was a song writer and not a guitarist, this should be one more reason for you to not blame him for the influence he had on guitarists. Again, am I wrong?

To say I'm disappointed at some of the comments made would be an understand. I did not realise that posting an [i]opinion that may not be in the majority would be wrong. To be told I know nothing, am ignorant and a coward is frankly disappointing - especially given who voiced those accusations.

The statement was coward, because Cobain is one of the few not constructed rock heroes in a long time, and because his creative process came to a premature end.

I didn't say you know nothing - I know nothing myself so I can't say that to you. I repeat, I didn't like the tone of your statement. Nirvana's music is so genuine, sincere, that I just can't accept the cynic attack you made. I would have understood if you attacked a band that was dishonest with its fans, but not Nirvana, please. If I was too passionate, forget about it. I guess you noticed I don't post often, and there is a reason I couldn't resist this time. I think you can understand how important bands and artists can be for a person.

Is it really so wrong to want that, even if it's just once? Is it so wrong to want a new guitar hero?

No it isn't. But as Faile said, you must understand that there are guitar heroes; simply, you don't like that kind of guitar hero.

I hope I was logical enough this time.

[Redpyramidhead]

I've been playing guitar for about 6 years. I was also into the whole late 80's-early 90's grunge thing that I agree was a necassary evolution. Arrrghhh...I had all these profound things i was going to say as this issue is exactly the kind of thing I would write a book on and talk for hours about (and do) but its too late and my mind just isn't working at the moment. You can bet that I will be back, though. Let me just say before I go that I believe that the guitar hero him or herself has gone through a much needed transformation from technical wizards with no sense of emotion to lead guitarists who compliment and also frontline in every way the emotion, angst, and connection to the music with pure raw energy in a beautiful dance of the most intense feelings of peace and terrible pain and unrest. Soundgarden is an incredible example.

He never wanted to be a mentor, a guide - he felt like he was there by chance, for a strange destiny, in the same spot of the charts where a macho band like Guns'n Roses used to be. Looking back at his songs, after ten years, you can still feel his rage, his love, his loneliness, that loneliness that each of us has inside, the loneliness that made this life terrible and terribly beautiful, but that Van Halen is so unable to express with his memorable solos. If there is a music that stays there, in all its nude sincerity, and that can teach our god-like star system (that affects also the supposedly alternative word of metal bands) something, that is the music of Nirvana. Unique, unrepeatable, pure in its simplicity yet so full of a thing that artists seem to forget: humanity.

No doubt Nirvana was all these great things and their music still haunts me to this day and always will. What I'm also trying to say though is I also wanted to talk about the surgence of other bands around the same time that also fit the above description of emotional connection to their music to the enth degree and also incorporated some quite masterful guitar work not necassarily always expressed so much in Nirvana. Whether Kurt Cobain is a newer kind of guitar hero in my mind is hard for me to decide...but there are certainly others who played music with the same type of direct connection to human emotions that came straight from their heart and soul when they played that are also technically good enough to be a newer kind of guitar hero. Not to say they were entirely original in this aspect, because what they did was bring back the emotional feel of greats such as Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix which was not felt during the 80's very much mainstreamwise. More on this later.
Nu-metal, as they call it, has indeed cut back on the guitar solos and masterful lead guitar work. I'll talk about my opinions on nu-metal more later.
Of course a lot of what I'm talking about is mostly mainstream music. I listen to a lot of less mainstream stuff that, IMO, is certainly not lacking in the department of insanely good guitarists. This is also a huge reason why saying guitar heroes have dissappeared is completely ridiculous. Also, The older ones that haven't died of drug overdoses or suicide or what not are still around! They didn't go anywhere! And a lot of them are still making incredible music.
Arrghh...I have to go for now. I just can't think anymore. I think I must have sounded all over the place mentally in this post. Time for bed.


_RED_ stuff

[Spank-A-Thon]

Originally posted by Faile

no post-cobain guitarists are poor. you merely consider them poor.

i equally consider vai and van halen to be poor guitarists because they have no songs that mean a single thing to me. A lot of newer mainstream guitarists wouldn't know an arpeggio sweep from a simple E chord - that to me is poor. A lot of newer mainstream guitarists have never experimented with style. But there are some post-Cobain guitarists who are incredibly talented - but they are not in the forefront like they used to be. Consider all the hundreds of 'college-rock' bands out at the moment (Sum 41 etc), they write catchy throwaway songs - but their is no real technical stuff in there. Similarly, the style is not so new either - Green Day were doing it nearly 10 years ago.

You keep missing the point of this thread Faile, I'm talking about guitar players - not song writers.Originally posted by Harry

Blame the clones then, not the original. It's like saying you hate Beatles because you hate many of their terrible clones (edit: ooops, you did that), or that you hate Beethoven for its influence over the musicians that followed him and copied ungracefully his style. It doesn't make any sense at all.I never said I 'hate' the Beatles... Anyway, blaming Cobain is like blaming George Lucas for the rise in films with all special effects and no plot. Both were pioneers of a certain style - some took that and built upon it, others just copied with no thought. Maybe 'blame' is the wrong word, but without Cobain (or Lucas) it might not have happened. But it did....

I personally think George Lucas is the man - but I'm not going to get upset if someone criticises him. I see the good things he did, but also the bad things. Same with Kurt.That was impossible to be seen from your post. What I didn't like was the the cynism with which you blamed Cobain, not your personal opinions; I completely respect an opinion when it comes in the form Mercury Shadow expressed it (leaving aside that lame referred to a poor barré chord :laugh: ). But it is my opinion that Cobain was responsible. That certainly doesn't mean I'm correct. I expected to receive counter-arguements, not personal attacks.Again, in your post all this was was completely hidden. If you loved Nirvana, or any other band, why should you talk of them in a way they don't deserve?I didn't love Nirvana, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam were always my grunge bands. But if Faile can blame the likes of VH and Vai for helping create bad music, why can't I do the same with Cobain? Why am I ignorant/cowardly for blaming one person, yet others who blame different people are not, simply because they subscribe to your point of view? Anyway, again it comes to opinion - it is your opinion that Nirvana/Cobain don't deserve ctricism, maybe it's my opinion that they do... Who's right? Neither of us - both our opinions are equally valid.I respect your personal experience, but the ignorance in your post was in blaming an artist for a whole style that then was created around that artist. It's exactly like blaming Monet because painters fascinated by his style started to care less about shapes and geometry and more about the suggestion of colors. It doesn't make any sense at all to me, am I wrong?

I wasn't speaking of ignorance in terms of opinions or knowledge.As I previously said, maybe blame is the wrong word. But I feel that anyone who innovates is responsible for the aftermath. If Kurt was an earthquake, does that mean he should not be responsible for the aftershocks? That's just my take on thingsI not agree with you when you say we can't consider Cobain a guitarist; he was the only guitar in his band for a long time, and I consider a real guitarist every player who create his style of playing. The ones who just follow the rules of technique and never experiment, are just performers for me, but I guess this is a matter of personal priorities. There are so many post-Cobain guitar heroesI didn't say we can't consider him a guitarist, but I say his strength lay in song-writing - but is that a bad thing? What would you rather be? A great guitarist, or a great song-writer? I know which I'd rather be.Anyhow, accepting that Cobain was a song writer and not a guitarist, this should be one more reason for you to not blame him for the influence he had on guitarists. Again, am I wrong?The style of song Cobain excelled at didn't depend on a 2-minute guitarfest in the middle. Others picked up on that, but forgot the song along the way. If a kid growing up learning to play guitar isn't subject to technical wizardry then he's not gonna pick up on it - therefore he had influence on aspiring guitarists.The statement was coward, because Cobain is one of the few not constructed rock heroes in a long time, and because his creative process came to a premature end. It was coward because I dared to criticise Cobain? Was that cos he's dead, or cos he's 'not-constructed'...? It would be cowardly to not express what I thought. You know, for some reason the majority of Cobain fans cannot tolerate any form of criticism... and I don't understand why. I have experienced this ever since he died.I didn't say you know nothing - I know nothing myself so I can't say that to you. I repeat, I didn't like the tone of your statement. Nirvana's music is so genuine, sincere, that I just can't accept the cynic attack you made. I would have understood if you attacked a band that was dishonest with its fans, but not Nirvana, please. If I was too passionate, forget about it. I guess you noticed I don't post often, and there is a reason I couldn't resist this time. I think you can understand how important bands and artists can be for a person.I do understand only too well how important bands can be to people. But what I don't understand is how people can take crticism of their favourite band or artist so personally. One of my all time favourite bands is Guns n Roses. And if some posted that Axl was a drug-abusing, pretentious arsehole I wouldn't get upset - I'd probably agree with you. If someone blamed them for a decline in musical standards I would certainly try and defend them - but I wouldn't start calling the poster ignorant or cowardly. I understand passion - but is it so hard to debate passionately without resorting to personal comments?No it isn't. But as Faile said, you must understand that there are guitar heroes; simply, you don't like that kind of guitar hero. Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. I was referring to a specific type of guitar hero and obviously that didn't come out clear. Sometimes I have difficulty vocalising my thoughts, other times I don't and for that I apologise.
- S

[Faile]

I feel you're missing the point of my argument. I'm stating that the death of fret work is by choice.

Case 1 :

Matt Bellamy of Muse.

Matt Bellamy is an amazing guitarist. He knows all his scales, uses them in his songs, plays all the arpeggios and harmonics you want, yet he does not overdo it to the point of farce. He writes them into the song so they become integral. The fact that he can also sing over them is an advantage. Now Matthew Bellamy is the best guitarist of our current generation, a fact backed up by all uk guitar magazines. He doesn't seek the recognition of 11 minute solos or any of the ego that goes with iron maiden-esque stagnant metal. His choice not to do this is typical and in keeping with his heroes - Kurt Cobain and Tom Morello.

Case 2 :

Tom Morello (ex of Rage against the Machine) of Audioslave

Tom Morello doesn't go for your Vai/Halen solos either, yet he is an incredibly intricate and inventive guitarist. I'm not the biggest fan of rage but the guitar work is incredibly innovative. He has had a great influence on the way people approach the guitar.

Case 3 : Billy Corgan (ex of Smashing Pumpkins) of Zwan

Billy Corgan is my guitar hero. Listen to the smashing pumpkins songs soma with its solo or the song Geek USA (both from the siamese dream album). The solo from Geek USA is one of the best pieces of guitar work in the last 50 years. It is completely impossible to recreate (even according to Billy Corgan who would play a different arrangement of it live each time) and yet is firmly within the framework of the sound of the band. It is short, yet incredibly amazing.
The smashing pumpkins were born of a time when playing a guitar solo was out of fashion. They along with the alt.rock and grunge movement helped to move guitar music away from the same sterile ground it has found itself stuck in in the years previous.

[Spank-A-Thon]

Just purely out of interest, Guitar.com have their Top 100 Guitarists of the Millenium on-line here (http://www.guitar.com/g2kfeatures/viewfeature.asp?featureID=12).

Now I haven't posted this link to 'prove' anything, and it certainly doesn't mean that what Guitar.com say is correct. But it does make reasonably interesting reading. I just thought seeing as though the thread is about guitarists some may find it interesting.

- S

[Harry]

Originally posted by Faile
Tom Morello (ex of Rage against the Machine) of Audioslave

Tom Morello doesn't go for your Vai/Halen solos either, yet he is an incredibly intricate and inventive guitarist. I'm not the biggest fan of rage but the guitar work is incredibly innovative. He has had a great influence on the way people approach the guitar.


Tom Morello is a genius... he plays using almost every part of a guitar ;)

[Spank-A-Thon]

Originally posted by Harry

Tom Morello is a genius... he plays using almost every part of a guitar ;) Indeed, the noises that guy can pull out of a guitar are unreal. But given that Rage Against... was released only 12 months after Nevermind, I wouldn't really class Morello as post-Cobain.

Bullet In the Head - now that's a solo...

- S

[Harry]

Originally posted by Spank-A-Thon
Same with Kurt.But it is my opinion that Cobain was responsible. That certainly doesn't mean I'm correct. I expected to receive counter-arguements, not personal attacks.
...
Why am I ignorant/cowardly for blaming one person, yet others who blame different people are not, simply because they subscribe to your point of view?
...
It was coward because I dared to criticise Cobain? Was that cos he's dead, or cos he's 'not-constructed'...? It would be cowardly to not express what I thought. You know, for some reason the majority of Cobain fans cannot tolerate any form of criticism... and I don't understand why. I have experienced this ever since he died.
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But what I don't understand is how people can take crticism of their favourite band or artist so personally.
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One of my all time favourite bands is Guns n Roses. And if some posted that Axl was a drug-abusing, pretentious arsehole I wouldn't get upset - I'd probably agree with you. If someone blamed them for a decline in musical standards I would certainly try and defend them - but I wouldn't start calling the poster ignorant or cowardly.

- S

- Mine were counter-arguments, if you read carefully.

- I'm sorry S, but I repeat, your method is not right. It's not even a matter of personal opinion, it's a matter of non-sense. Blaming an artist for the bad influence he had on others is non-sense, and that was the core of your first posts. It's ignorant because it's a wrong method you're applying. Not to mention the fact that blaming a single person for creating a whole style it's a bit naive!

- I explained the sense of "coward" in my post.

- Faile and all the others are just saying that Van Halen and all the others he mentioned say nothing to him, he doesn't "like" them at all. If you said the same of Nirvana, I wouldn't have even replied to the post. Mercury prefers Metallica? That's great, everybody has a favorite band.

- Someone can, others can't. I was passionate, but extremely logical too. :disturb:

- Btw, I see we have completely different opinions on a lot of matters, and in musical tastes too. I hate Guns'n Roses like few other bands; anyhow I don't blame them.

[Mercury Shadow]

Tom Morello is auctually a Harvard graduate, really smart guy. I think Tom is an interesting guitarist, but I don't really like the music that much. Evil Empire was a good, solid album, but I disliked Battle of Los Angeles and their s/t album. Too much rappin' on the first album.

And also, it seems guitar.com believes Kurt Cobain is a better guitarist than David Gilmore and Kirk Hammett :sarcasm:

[Spank-A-Thon]

Originally posted by Harry

- Btw, I see we have completely different opinions on a lot of matters, and in musical tastes too. I hate Guns'n Roses like few other bands; anyhow I don't blame them. Well, I'm still going to have to disagree with some of your points - especially the 'coward' and 'ignorance' comments. However, we'll simply have to agree to disagree because I doubt there will ever be any resolution to this debate. I think it's a case of 'burying the poverbial hatchet', shaking hands and walking away.

But hey, I managed to invoke some kind of emotional response (albeit not intentionally), and that's one of the merits of a good debate. For me it makes a change from the usual 'name your fave game' type thread. Although I am somewhat suprised that is has taken this long for someone to post something that has had this effect (I appreciate you've had a ton of 'nuisance' posts, but no matter how much you disagree with my posts in this thread, they have not been in breach of the TOS.).

Yeah, we do have different opinions on some things, yet probably have similar opinions on others. That's what makes us who we are. Any community needs to have different opinions otherwise it will stagnate and cease to evolve. Things would get real boring real quick if we all agreed on the same things...

However, since last night, I can't help but wonder if I have out-stayed my welcome on these forums. Considering you (Harry), Fortune and Faile (all mods/admins) have all come down on me like a ton of bricks, I would not like to a) have all my posts judged purely on the basis of this thread, and b) ending up having to leave in a unhappy manner.

- S

[Mercury Shadow]

Personally, I think your posts are very intelligent. I gained respect from you because of everything that happened and was said in "other consoles" a while back... the good ol' days (funky monk, hah)

[MakgSnake]

Originally posted by Spank-A-Thon
However, since last night, I can't help but wonder if I have out-stayed my welcome on these forums. Considering you (Harry), Fortune and Faile (all mods/admins) have all come down on me like a ton of bricks, I would not like to a) have all my posts judged purely on the basis of this thread, and b) ending up having to leave in a unhappy manner.

- S
Nobody is coming down on you like bricks S. They are mentioning their opinions.

[Faile]

dude, please do not get all angsty with us.

Its merely a coincidence that you have admins/mods debating with you, and thats all it is, a debate.

You are a valued member of this community and we shouldn't all fall out because we have different opinions. In fact I was/am enjoying discussing guitarists with people who have an opinion. Just because we don't agree doesn't make your opinion any less valid than mine is.

[Spank-A-Thon]

Originally posted by Mercury Shadow

Personally, I think your posts are very intelligent. I gained respect from you because of everything that happened and was said in "other consoles" a while back... the good ol' days (funky monk, hah)
Originally posted by Faile

dude, please do not get all angsty with us.

Its merely a coincidence that you have admins/mods debating with you, and thats all it is, a debate.

You are a valued member of this community and we shouldn't all fall out because we have different opinions. In fact I was/am enjoying discussing guitarists with people who have an opinion. Just because we don't agree doesn't make your opinion any less valid than mine is. Thank you both of you - that means a lot to me.

I simply don't want to upset the mods/admins and get a rep for being an arse. The last thing I wanna do is get on the wrong side of The Big Cheese, The Head Honcho, The Top Dog, The Main Man.

- S

[Harry]

Originally posted by Spank-A-Thon
However, we'll simply have to agree to disagree because I doubt there will ever be any resolution to this debate. I think it's a case of 'burying the poverbial hatchet', shaking hands and walking away.

But hey, I managed to invoke some kind of emotional response (albeit not intentionally), and that's one of the merits of a good debate. For me it makes a change from the usual 'name your fave game' type thread. Although I am somewhat suprised that is has taken this long for someone to post something that has had this effect (I appreciate you've had a ton of 'nuisance' posts, but no matter how much you disagree with my posts in this thread, they have not been in breach of the TOS.).


Hey S,

I'm happy too to have had this opportunity to discuss things we like, and as you said a good debate can make people express things with passion.

We actually have more threads of this kind, and with this kind of answers, than many other gaming forums; sometimes I look at the Hot threads (they are most recent threads with a certain number of posts) in the main page of the website and I'm simply amazed by the fact that most of the threads aren't usually about gaming.

Thumbs up to Ps2Fantasy.com forums then, to its great administrators (don't count me in the list, Fortune is the person that really made the difference here, planning, organizing and moderating these forums to give them the shape they have now), moderators (you're great), and all the amazing members that come here to speak about more than games.

Thanks you all, and coming back to this topic, thanks to you Spank-A-Thon, for your threads. We have different opinions and that's just great, really. And I don't know if you were talking about me, but I'm far from being "The Main Man". :)

[furry_spatula]

Van Halen :laugh:

and Randy Rhodes too :P

but mostly Van Halen :laugh:

Where are YOU going?!?!?!?!?!