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Miki
May 3rd, 2002, 06:01 PM
I've heard MGS2 didn't win many prizes among the best games of 2001. I wonder: why? It's a great game? Why? :mad:
Critics like it and players too, but they preferred giving prizes to other games. I mean, this game is also very original and innovative, when we talk of gamplay, and the story is very well done. I don't know what to say...

Hadoken
May 3rd, 2002, 07:25 PM
huh? i thought MGS2 won plently of awards.

Miki
May 3rd, 2002, 07:29 PM
I know that GTA3, Jak and Dexter and Final Fantasy X won the major prizes. At least that's what I've read on a magazine.

happy_doughnut
May 7th, 2002, 10:32 PM
You're right. I was surprised to read that Jak and Dexter won so many. I still haven't heard of MGS2 winning any though. I do know that they were in the top 10 best sellers list after GTA3 but there's no sign of any prizes...
:mad:

Capoeira
May 8th, 2002, 10:40 AM
Well have you even played any of these games Mena :peoples:, otherwise you would have know that MGS2 was I'm sorry to say inadequate compared to MGS1 :boo:.

Hadoken
May 8th, 2002, 01:11 PM
that doesnt mean it wasnt a good game man...

Capoeira
May 8th, 2002, 01:26 PM
Well, I think they would have expected the same potential as the first one. I know I did, if not more.

Infernal Mass
May 8th, 2002, 04:22 PM
i thought the game was great(lots of surprises).It was overhyped alittle though IMO.Everyone thought it was supposed to be the second coming of god or something..when it showed it was just a really good game.

happy_doughnut
May 8th, 2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Capoeira
Well have you even played any of these games Mena :peoples:, otherwise you would have know that MGS2 was I'm sorry to say inadequate compared to MGS1 :boo:.

If I hadn't, why would I be posting about them?

And Hadoken is right. That doesn't mean it wan't a good game. IMO, I liked it.

Capoeira
May 8th, 2002, 06:14 PM
I would have been great, if it was actually a real mission. Instead you're being set up from day one.

Pu the Owl
May 9th, 2002, 07:18 PM
The fact the game was less a "traditional" action game than the first one, that was also very different from other games of the genre, is a quality, not an issue.
The potential of MGS2 was incredibly powerful and "revolutionary" for the world of videogames. That's why many people say they didn't quite understand its contents and message.

Capoeira
May 9th, 2002, 07:51 PM
But MSG1 was no different then any other game of its genre, and it was still a bit hit. So why couldn't they have just kept its tradition alive, still would have been a good an original storyline.

Carlito
May 9th, 2002, 08:03 PM
First of all you're wrong when you say MGS1 is a traditional action game. MGS1 is more than an average action game, and this is something developers wanted to be clear for the player. In MGS2 they wanted to create something even more original and different, something that only if you look at superficial aspects can be defined "Action" game. In MGS2 Kojima transferred an ideal, a philosophy, a mix of all his personal and cultural influences, that is really a complex pastiche. I think the fact people always prefer games like GTA3, with no other philosophy than pure entertainment, could be one of the reasons that forced Kojima to focus his next interest on a console like Gamecube, instead of Sony Playstation. I mean, for a developer who spent many years of his career in the creation of games that are really misunderstood from many points of view, and you are demonstrating this, must be frustrating to hear that a quite "simple" game, at least for ideology expressed is preferred to a game like MGS2 that has a really deep and constructive content. I'd do the same and let players do whatever they want with MGS3, knowing they only remember moments of action and in general don't really care about contents ( some palyers are even bothered by contents :sarcasm: )....

Harry
May 9th, 2002, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Capoeira
But MSG1 was no different then any other game of its genre, and it was still a bit hit. So why couldn't they have just kept its tradition alive, still would have been a good an original storyline.

Man , if you say so, I think you haven't played MGS1 or you haven't played any other action/adventure game.

The Metal Gear Solid series is one of the most impressive and revolutionary creations in the industry. The latest Metal Gear didn't win many prizes in the U.S. because of titles like GTA3 or Final Fantasy X.

I loved these games, but they lack, in my opinion, the complexity, the technique, the story behind MGS2. But, unlike MGS2, they are games that are created with the purpose of making the average (American) player happy. And that's also good, but there are other ways to create videogames.

Sons Of Liberty is a game that is able to give the player extraordinary freedom (first of all, the possibility to find multiple solutions to the same situation) but at the same time it narrates an incredibly strong story, in a way that is in the forefront of linguistic research applied to videogames.

GTA3's game system gives the player great freedom but it lacks a strong story - Final Fantasy X narrates a strong story but it lacks freedom. I repeat, I love these games, especially the concept behind GTA3, but I think the work behind MGS2 is simply on another level.

*spoilers*

MGS2 is truly an act of courage of a company and of a game director; the introduction of Raiden as a substitute of Solid Snake, the scene with Raiden running naked in the Shell (that was clearly put in to shock the Puritan macho spirit of so many American reviewers, players, and developers..... and in fact, how many said "that game is gay"....), the absence of real bad guys (Is Solidus the real bad guy? Wasn't he fighting for freedom? Yes, he killed Olga, but after all she was an "agent" of the Patriots... you could have played the whole game from the point of view of Solidus, and you could have considered him the good guy maybe....), the possibility to read the game on different levels... Kojima created something that probably many players won't even realize for a long time.

Because after all, a game is just a game. Thankfully, not for everyone.

Capoeira
May 10th, 2002, 07:20 AM
:frust: Now don't you be throwing that crap in my face. While you were still seeing in black in white, I was playing the first Metal Gear for Nintendo, shooting my way into Outer Heaven :P. All I'm saying is that MGS1 was the best of its genre, so why couldn't they do the same for part 2. Instead, you're being mislead into thinking that your fighting, shooting, and killing had a cause, but in the end, you were merely a puppet :mad:.

Carlito
May 10th, 2002, 11:54 AM
Hey, calm down dude! We're not saying anything but our opinion, ok? MGS2 is "more" than Action, we're not saying it's real life. And BTW, aren't movies just the same? Are they real life? Aren't actors in movies just characters created by somone else? There are some movies considered to be "author movies", which has something to tell well beyond the genre of the movie. And there are other movies that have the only purpose to entertain the audience. They're both movies but in a different way. And if you didn't like MGS2 because it wasn't "action" enough, well, it's your taste, we don't have to agree on this point.

Harry
May 10th, 2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Capoeira
:frust: Now don't you be throwing that crap in my face. While you were still seeing in black in white, I was playing the first Metal Gear for Nintendo, shooting my way into Outer Heaven :P. All I'm saying is that MGS1 was the best of its genre, so why couldn't they do the same for part 2. Instead, you're being mislead into thinking that your fighting, shooting, and killing had a cause, but in the end, you were merely a puppet :mad:.

At the end of the first MGS, you were nothing but a puppet. The story is the same after all, didn't you notice that? And calm down or I'll hate you. AhAh!

Capoeira
May 10th, 2002, 12:38 PM
Either way the ending for MGS2 is still the same, at least in the first one, your giving the option to choose your journey. Not enough games do that nowadays. Ya know at first, I thought at the part of the game where you have to protect Otacon's sister, you were given the choice to either call snake for help, or not. If you didn't, Emma survives, if you did call Snake for help, Emma dies. Another one of MGS2's misleadings :mad:.

MakgSnake
May 11th, 2002, 07:39 PM
Well, I Think Metal Gear Solid 2 : Sons Of Liberty Is One Of The Most Amazing Game Of Its Kind. That Is (Action/Adventure). And Even If Ure Talking About All Kind Of Games, It Does Stand Out, Totally!.!

I Am Not Surprised By Hearing That MGS2 Didn't Win Any Awards On And All That. Cause Awards Are Giving To More Commercial Games. Like Many People Has Said Here. That MGS2 Was A Very Different Game, It Was More Then A Game, With Kojima's Philosophy And His Own Thoughts And Trying To Show The World His Way Of Thinking.....Something That People Try To TELL The World Through Novels And Books, He Was Doing IT Through A Video Game.

Thats One Of The Reasons, It Went Through People's Head. They At First Took It As A Normal Average VideoGame. Which It Was Not!.!

If There Were Any Kind Of "Oscars" For VideoGames.... I Am 100% Sure Metal Gear Solid 2 Would Be The "Ben-Hur" For It!.!

Qjij_jijQ
May 12th, 2002, 06:54 AM
I really liked Metal Gear Solid 2 too, but I thought that the story was still very... shallow.

I mean, sure Kojima talks about "important" stuff, but there's nothing in the game that is really fresh and new. What is new though is that that concept is brought into a game, instead of a movie, but I would still have appreciated a bit more complexity... that's my opinion though.

Carlito
May 12th, 2002, 07:45 AM
hehehe Qjij, weird because what usually people who didn't like MGS2 say the opposite thing: that the plot was too much complex for being only a videogame, while for a movie the idea is good :D

Sleazy P Martini
May 12th, 2002, 07:56 AM
When I first played MGS2 I was very disappointed. I found it sub par with MGS. But I don't think it was the game that was flawed, but instead my perception of what it should be. If I play a FF game, I expect cut scenes and FMVs......but I expected MGS2 to be more action focused. In a sense MGS2 is an RPG type game, and if I look at it that way, I can really see where the hype come from. I plan on picking it up when it goes GH.

What???? Sleazy P saying something positive about MGS2????? Fraid so ;)

Qjij_jijQ
May 12th, 2002, 10:46 AM
What ya donna do ? I'm a complicated guy. :D

I don't know... I had heard that it was going to be longer than Metal Gear Solid, but it ended up taking only a few hours to complete...

I think the story was "okay", but I ended up most of the time like:

" Okay, cut the crap and tell me about the important stuff... "

I think it's too easy to figure out what Kojima wants to say and it's nothing really... interestin'. Don't get me wrong ! This game is so awesome... It's probably one of my favorite on the PlayStation 2, but I think that Kojima could've put some more thought in what he wanted to say and even go a bit farther...

The only thing that comes to mind at the end of the game is: And... ?

Hylas
May 12th, 2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Qjij_jijQ


The only thing that comes to mind at the end of the game is: And... ?

...and now we'll see in MGS3! :D

Just joking...but anyway, I agree on the fact you don't have to see the plot as it is. Kojima put in it a very deep thought on freedom, on the limits of freedom that everyone has because of mass media, authority and so on. We are free, it seems, but who knows what is real freedom and what is freedom manipulated by authority? Maybe we're only doing what others decided for us, because society is made to let us do only what has been already decided by someone else. Don't you think this is complex enough for a videogame? There are other cultural means, like books and movies and sometimes even newspapers that find difficult talking about such themes. I think the fact they put this subject in a videogame is amazing. I doubt you can find a similar complexity in other games around...

Qjij_jijQ
May 12th, 2002, 11:44 AM
Yeah, I agree with you Hylas...

But all that you just said, I had already saw on tv... It doesn't take a genious to figure out that those things are present in our society and that the things we see/hear are not always what they seem to be... Sure, it's cool to see that a game was "brave" enough to talk about something so... touchy.

The stuff they talk about is interestin'... but not new. ( to me, at least )

Plus, it's mixed with sci-fi stuff and some stupid littl' morals for kids ( sorry for that, I'm just REALLy tired of morals for kids ).

Nevertheless, it's an awesome game ! :D

Pu the Owl
May 12th, 2002, 12:43 PM
Nothing is new. If you get an ancient book like the Odissey by the Greek poet Homer, you'll notice that in 4000 years of history nothing new has been said. From movies, to TV shows, to latest books, there's nothing completely new that can be expressed. So what's the surprise that MGS2 cannot express a subject that is completely innovative if man is always the same and keeps on repeating the same things over and over again? At least for a videogame we can see it as a novelty.

Qjij_jijQ
May 12th, 2002, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I agree with that...

I think I'm just too demanding. I'd like a story to really surprise me, but like you said... almost every possible thing they could talk about has already been told at least once.

Then again, there is no limit to what we can imagine and I still believe it is possible to find a way to create something that would amaze everyone... there has to be !

MakgSnake
May 12th, 2002, 02:56 PM
Well, Atleast MGS2 Tried To Do Something New. If People Say, They Didn't Expect Anything New From MGS2, Then...I Think, They Wont Get Anything New At All From Other Games Around.

The Amount Of Hard Work Put In A Game, Drools Out Of The Game.

And....One Of The Reasons The Game Has.... "..........And?" In It...Because, Kojima Mentioned Already That His Team Was Way Out Of Reach Of Complition Of The Game. He Actually Thought That He Wont Be Able To Release The Game In 2001 (The Year Of Snake)...... So In Order To Do So........He Had To, Had To Finish The Game So That It Could Get A Release In 2001. That Could Be The Reason, So Many Questions Were Not Answered. But Then All Of Em Will Be Answered In MGS3. We All Know That!.! Because Before, KOJIMA Was Saying That MGS2 Is Going To Be The Last Game For The Series, But......Now We Are Seeing The Light Of Another Sequal!.!

Qjij_jijQ
May 12th, 2002, 04:51 PM
I understand that...

But don't you think that the way Kojima did things, it's like his message is more important than the story itself ? It's like he "sacrificed" part of the plot to introduce what he had to say... He could've incorporated everything together to make up a better storyline.

Well, again... It might look like I didn't like it, but I truly believe it's one of the best games I have ever played in my entire life... it's just that I was somewhat dissapointed on some aspects.

MakgSnake
May 13th, 2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Qjij_jijQ
it's just that I was somewhat dissapointed on some aspects.
My Be Thats The Reason, MGS2 Didn't Win Any Awards. Cause People Were A Little Disappointed In It. Even I Was, When I First Played It.

U See, Even MGS1 Had A Theme And A Message. But Like We Have Said, It Was More Of The StraightForward Story. Everything With Niomi And Snake Was A Message To The Viewers.

Kojima Gave It A little More Push To His Thinkings In MGS2.....Which U Think Isn't Right. But Look At Me....I Think Its Amazing.....!.....Not Because I Am A MGSFanatic...But Because It Truly Was Amazing IMO!.! :D

Rei
May 13th, 2002, 05:10 PM
Plot is only one of the aspects that make a vidoegame enjoyable. We all know what other aspects are, I'm not going to make a list, and MGS2 was amazing from any single point of view required by a videogame. Adding to this the message Kojima left to be understood by the player was really strong. This is an aspect that cannot be found in many videogames.