Women are not meat.

happy_doughnut · Jun 9th, 2004, 01:09 AM

I dedicate this to every woman out there who has experienced the incessant stares, lewd looks, unwanted names, and ceaseless harassment by undesired men. I'm sure we've all had to deal with this in one form or another; online or not.

Do you not find this overly vexing? Anger inducing? Unscrupulous? I'm sorry, but this... this makes me furious. Not to be condoning any actions, but sometimes, when a woman is "deliberately" looking to be given this (dirty form of, imho) "flattery" or "admiration" - and even in some cases, provoking men to do this, I suppose the situation can be triggered by the woman herself.

However, I'm going to go ahead and generalize that women, as a whole, do not like to be called names like "baby" (by unwanted men) nor do they wish to be hassled by men in any way. This is not to say, however, that women do not like to be pampered by being given pet names; we do, but when given by the right people.

I know that every female has gone through this unpleasant experience once or twice: I know I have, and not only do I find this disgusting, but the sole notion that (some) men think they have leeway into directing these derragatory comments towards women is saddening.

I mean, we're not mere objects here.

Anyone else find this wrong? And, just why do (some) guys do this, anyway? Goodness.

Berserker · Jun 9th, 2004, 01:27 AM

I find it wrong, I used to work for the Heineken company for a short while during one summer. The work meant delivering beer to all the bars, restaurants, clubs etc. in Amsterdam. I was helping dragging the fusts(???) down the stairs and stuff and another guy drove the truck.....He was one major pig always honking his horn and shouting obscene things to scarsely dressed women on the street, I mean he was worse than a construction worker. But there were even women who enjoyed it, which only made him shout more against all the other women. So they sort of became victim cause of the ones that were flattered.

Like you said women like flattery when done by the right people and I think the problem is that most of these guys are so arrogant that they think they're the right people( and what they're saying can hardly be called flattery...).

Redpyramidhead · Jun 9th, 2004, 02:07 AM

I think ugly guys like me should have just as much right to try and compliment and flatter women as anybody else. But suddenly for some reason when this happens, suddenly the guy is viewed as a pig, whereas if it were some dude who looked like antonio banderas or something the same girl might become all smiles and giggle her way straight into a relationship with the guy. And yes, I am bitter. Women do the same thing. I hope it equally occurs to all of you, that men are not meat, either. This is a human problem, not one confined to one sex. We are both at fault and the very root of stopping this problem lies in agreeing upon that.
And it also depends on what kind of person you are, some much deeper and with more substance than others, but don't let it make you think you are exempt.

_RED_ stuff

merylsilverburg · Jun 9th, 2004, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redpyramidhead

I think ugly guys like me should have just as much right to try and compliment and flatter women as anybody else. Honestly, I don't think most women know what they want so how the fuck are we supposed to know how to act? If I am myself, I get spat upon. I am sorry, but the most stuck up women in the world live right here in new hampshire. And yes, I am bitter.

_RED_ stuff

Uh, stuck-up women do not just live in New Hampshire, I'm sorry to say. Stuck-up women are everywhere in every part of the world.

Hell, I can even say the majority of stuck-up b*tches live where I live, but it's not gonna be true.
Another thing, it's true what you say: some women don't know what they want even though they act like they do, so yes, I can see why it's very irritating and tiresome to even bother. Of course, why would any women just flat-out say "Yuck, go away you're ugly?". I mean, I can imagine 98% women do that, but I'm thinking that at least 2% of these females at least think about hurting the other's feelings if they say such a thing.
But this isn't saying you're wrong though; every guy does have some right to flatter a women, but I think Mena was saying that these men who "flatter" women are actually going beyond just mere flattery...like cat-calling, "Hey baby", "Mmm, you look fine" and all those terribly laughable comments. But then again, it wasn't right to say "Undesirable men" since it may be undesirable to Mena since she doesn't like it, but not every women feels this way.

Anyway, I've never actually been stared, called, or harrassed at which I admit I'm pretty damn lucky.

I can imagine the annoyance though if I were ever to receive such a thing, but honestly...why would anyone be so annoyed about this sort of thing unless they get it constantly? I mean, Mena...do you get it often or something? If so, I understand your irritation, but if you don't, I don't think this is something that you should be too annoyed about. If I were to get it at least once or twice, yeah, it'd be stupid, but this is actually something I'd laugh about/brush off because of how ridiculous those guys are thinking I'm stupid enough to believe them. Or how ridiculous that those guys are so bored or haven't seen a good-looking female in so long, they had to comment on the next barbarian that came their way. This isn't something I'd get so worked up about. Besides, females cannot keep thinking that every guy that just looks at them are actually checking them out (and I'm not talking about when a guy yells out "Yo honey!" or anything). No...some of these guys are actually just looking at you...not seeing how great or how gorgeous you are. There are some guys that just have that blank look...and many girls think "Omg, he's checking me out! What a pervert!" I mean, what does this say about the girl that thinks that every guy is checking her out? The girl must have some major confidence if they think they look so good that no man can turn away from them when they're just getting the mail.

And what I say is not BS 'cause there is this one girl who really annoys me to no end thinking that every male on the goddamn planet think she looks good. Even when it's a friggin' 98 year old man, she thinks "Hey, he thinks I'm a goddess". Please...

But, it is true however that women tend to desire these so-called "unwanted" flattery. I mean, my God...there are some women who are just so....ughh....let's just say they wear the a piece of cloth and when they actually get stared at, they roll their eyes and comment "God, what are they looking at?" but c'mon...you can tell right away they love every minute of it. And there are some women who are merely walking down the street and, not wearing scanty clothing, but get cat-called anyway. Sure, these females turn away in disgust, but there are a few of them who actually secretly enjoy/desire it. And then, there are some women who are so butt-ugly and they think guys are checking 'em out and it's like "Wow, I must look fantastic today", but uh...no. They're looking beyond you, not at you.

Alright, so I have a thing against females and males. Both sexes have equally negative qualities, though I'd say females are a bit more irksome. Yep...so...let the flaming commence.

missingno · Jun 9th, 2004, 03:28 AM

I agree With Brenda 100% women arent meat, and i know they feel bad after sumthing like that happened to them. i know many women that feel badly after sumone just starts annoying them with flirts, or with crap talk... like " oh hey baby". every woman should have the right to be treated like a Queen.. ( thats the way i treat my Gurlfriend :"p )

and about the guy thing... no its not the same.. i know if i was whistled at by a gurl.. id be like "whoa.. whered that come from , hehe" i wouldnt get mad :"o

guys and gurls are diffrently..

one should be treated like a Queen.. and the other should keep his comments to himself, cos not all gurls like it.

Infernal Mass · Jun 9th, 2004, 05:07 AM

For the name calling I like using different combinations...my new one for the month of June is "spicy honey muffin!"...that one has been getting alot of good reviews lately. Last month it was "hootchie koochie mamma!" i tried to go for the whole exotic magical voodoo love feel with that one...

i try to experiment as much as possible. One day i'll find the perfect combo!

kupoartist · Jun 9th, 2004, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missingno

guys and gurls are diffrently..

yes they are different, but nowhere near as different as Society makes them different. Platonic same sex relationships (i.e. not Homosexual) are often seen as different when male and female relationship groups are compared. Girls are co-operative and Boys are competative. Yet in other societies, guys actually express themselves and their friendship for one another in what we may term a femanine way. Two guys walking down the stree holding hands whilst walking down the street in one society may be labbled "******s". In another, they may just "be good friends". A guy calling a girl "babe" is just part of this wider picture of western society - to emphasise social distance by using common "macho" phrases. And frankly, I think it's pathetic. By being rude they intend to be non-conformist, yet ironically, all they're doing is conforming to society's expectations of them. To appear macho and verile. It's part of a basic almost animal-like dance of courtship - The male peacock shows off his elabourately coloured feathers. The human male draws upon hidden reserves of brain-power to string together a supposedly flattering sentance in the hope that he'll get laid. You may be made to feel like meat, but you should at least take pride in the fact that you haven't got a deluxe-sized tin of spam between your ears ^^.

The sad truth is simply that, despite the actions of feminists since the late 19th Century, Men and Women are unbalanced in terms of social position. Men hold the power of the sexes, often by institutionalised elements in society. The english language itself is deeply institutionalised against women - The equivilent of "Master" is "Mistress", but the later holds far more negative connotations than the former. Job titles are traditionally male-biased: Milkman, Fireman, Policeman. Even an innocuous word like "History" contain's "His" - why not "Herstory" or "Ourstory"? Unless you're white and male, you're statistically unlikely to lead a country. If you're one of the few women in power, you're rarely "a great leader" but more likely "a battle axe", regardless of your political views or prowess. Margaret Thatcher forcibly adopted a deeper vocal range because female voices just aren't believed to be "authorative" in the way that males are. Sexism is firmly rooted in every influential movement that ever existed.

With time, hopefully it will change. The last 200 years have seen a lot of change in that respect. But I doubt it'll be in our lifetimes - your grandaughters and maybe even their grandaughters may have to endure the same derogratory statements. Just don't let it get to you, and remember - so long as inequality exists, a guy can't hit you back when you kick him sharply in the groin

007_JamesBond · Jun 9th, 2004, 04:56 PM

women should be loved and cherrished and treated like queens not like meat, guys should feel lucky when they find a girl that they can have a relationship because they never know when it will end

tempted · Jun 9th, 2004, 05:16 PM

Ok i guess i can give my opinion about this..yes it's very annoying when something like that happens to me...but well like Meryl said it shouldn't be something to annoy you so much.. men are dumb and for the most part they only use the thing between their legs instead of their heads to think..so i guess it's just something to ignore..sure it can be flattering to recieve a compliment from time to time but obviously only if it comes from the right person...not some shithead who can't look at a girl without drooling(??)

goodman · Jun 9th, 2004, 05:52 PM

What pet names do you get called sometime, Doughnut? Krispy Kreme, or Dunkin? J/K, yeah its real ez to get yanked by guys, im sure. Same for women, they can toss little pet names out there sometimes, and i feel like telling em to stick in up their craw, myself...

Hyuuga Neji · Jun 9th, 2004, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happy_doughnut

I dedicate this to every woman out there who has experienced the incessant stares, lewd looks, unwanted names, and ceaseless harassment by undesired men. I'm sure we've all had to deal with this in one form or another; online or not.

Do you not find this overly vexing? Anger inducing? Unscrupulous? I'm sorry, but this... this makes me furious. Not to be condoning any actions, but sometimes, when a woman is "deliberately" looking to be given this (dirty form of, imho) "flattery" or "admiration" - and even in some cases, provoking men to do this, I suppose the situation can be triggered by the woman herself.

However, I'm going to go ahead and generalize that women, as a whole, do not like to be called names like "baby" (by unwanted men) nor do they wish to be hassled by men in any way. This is not to say, however, that women do not like to be pampered by being given pet names; we do, but when given by the right people.

I know that every female has gone through this unpleasant experience once or twice: I know I have, and not only do I find this disgusting, but the sole notion that (some) men think they have leeway into directing these derragatory comments towards women is saddening.

I mean, we're not mere objects here.

Anyone else find this wrong? And, just why do (some) guys do this, anyway? Goodness.

Don't take this the wrong way but by reading your statement it seemed to me like your setting a double standard saying i only want the good without the bad, that be great if we lived in a perfect world. It's good to know that your venting about this, but you cant just pin point the male species for this as i have seen woman do the same thing to men, again the whole double standard.

goodman · Jun 9th, 2004, 05:54 PM

Very true, women do very much indulge in this characteristic also...

Spank-A-Thon · Jun 9th, 2004, 05:57 PM

First off, I'd like to say "hear hear" for Red - women are just as bad as men, equally obsessed with looks if not even more so. I have never told a girl to her face that she was ugly - however I have had derogatory remarks made to me directly by females.

Secondly, is it really that bad to be told you're nice, attractive, whatever? Would you prefer a life of being ignored, never complimented no matter how crass the remark? Sure, there are limits - but I hardly think a wolf-whistle or "Hey baby" is offensive (unless you're stupidly over sensitive).

Finally, if anyone thinks that men hold the power then they are completely wrong. When it comes to the battle of the sexes, the women hold all the Aces in the pack.

Men are constantly competing to gain the attention of some female out there. They wear certain clothes, drive certain cars, wear certain aftershave all for this reason. If a woman was to walk in a room and ask for sex, most of the time she would not be short of offers. If a male was to do the reverse, I think the success rate would be much lower.

All you need to do is think of the sheer amount of ways time and money is gotten from men in order to have anything to do with an attractive female.... Porn, lap dancing, buying drinks in a bar, dating, flowers, gifts and so on.....

There may be many aspects of life where men appear to have the upper hand, but equally there's a gazillion other aspects where women have the upper hand - I know it, and my girlfriend knows it.

You do realise that 90% of all DIY tasks by men are performed under the promise of sexual favours?

Behind every great man is an even greater woman - so true so true....

- S

goodman · Jun 9th, 2004, 06:19 PM

Ive worked in office situations many times over the years, and had women telling nasty jokes and yacking it up, while a woman may call a lot of that "sexual harassment" or something similar, by a man, they clearly do the same thing they call "harassment" without regards to a man being within earshot of their comments. So the respect they want from me, they arent willing to give to me, so its a toss up. Just an observation, but i think women arent as mannerly as they once were...

happy_doughnut · Jun 9th, 2004, 08:09 PM

Well, this is surprising. Everyone completely misundertood me. Thanks.

First off, I'd apologize to everyone who misunderstood, but I'm not going to.
However, I will elaborate on what I said/meant on my previous post:

I know there are double standards. I know this, and I dislike this. I think it wrong to, for example, throw a guy in jail for hitting his wife because it's "domestic abuse" and have a women praised for hitting a guy, because for them, it was "self defence." This, to me, is utterly ridiculous.

These double standards have been here since the beginning, and apparently will continue to live side by side with us for a long time to come. These doubles standards are just as hurtful for women as they as helpful, and vice versa for men.

However, I'm sorry, but I find those remarks disgusting and derragatory. Like meryl said, sure every now and then, hey, why make a big deal? Just brush it off. This is what I do: I hear this nonsense and roll my eyes or shake my head. Heck, sometimes I find it funny... when their usage of words is so horrid, one can't help but laugh. But sometimes, they cross the line. And I mean really cross the line. I know that yesterday was a rather bitter day for me, not only because of the offensive things that were said, but because of the fright that they gave me.

I know women do this, too. I know. Is it right? No, of course not. And those women mr. goodman was talking about, oh, I know those; sickly women they are. The only problem is that women tend to suffer more from this. Why? I don't know, maybe because that's just the way society has set things. Sad? Yes, very - for both sexes.

Oh, and Red: I'm sorry to hear that you are bitter. But to tell you the truth, reading your post was rather disappointing. Why? Because you are one of the few people that know me rather well, and it's sad to think that you would think me that shallow, when you well know that I'm not.

By "unwated," in no way whatsoever did I mean "unattractive." What I simply meant was strangers. To me, a stranger, whether beautiful or not, that goes off telling you all sorts of things that you don't want to hear because of the degrading things they say, is an "unwanted person"; it's hearing things from an "unwanted person." I mean, hell, who doesn't like to be flattered every now and then? I think just about everyone does. When flattered by someone you know, then, hey, no biggy, right? There's a difference between passing down a street and being looked and smiled at. I mean, why get offended by that? If you are thought to be pretty by the male/female looking at you, then hey, let them be.

However, it's when they cross the line - when the harrasing begins that makes me mad. And to tell the truth, when this happens to me - be it while I wait for my parents to pick me up from places, while I'm at the library getting a book, or walking home from school, and men go overboard, it frightens me. Red said men can't differentiate between the two, and if that's true, then how sad it is that you are that numb to others' feelings.

How can you NOT tell the difference between a casual comment of flattery and harrasment?

Why do women do this? I personally would not know, as I must be the least sexually enlightened person on this side of the world. Is it right? No way. Should they be called upon this rude behavior just as men do? Certainly.

And what does decency have to do with being "stupidly overly sentisitive?"
Maybe I'm one of those sensitive people, but I know plenty of others that aren't and they get just as offended by these overly rude remarks, if not more. Maybe not to some, but to others, these things, when they occur with little distance apart, are shameful.

So in essence, I was not only talking about women, but about a person in general. It just so happens that it a lot easier to identify this subject in correlation with women, be it fair or unfair.

That and because of what happened yesterday, I felt quite bad, and I was looking to see that you guys would understand, as that would have been comforting, but I guess not.

Whatever suits all of you is just fine.

goodman · Jun 9th, 2004, 08:37 PM

Sorry, Doughnut, im gathering they really got to you in your personal life with comments, recently. Im sensitive to comments myself, so be assured your totally understood here, and have every reason to feel the way you do. I grew up in the sixties and seventies, when there was a bit more respect, but still a lot of tough times getting along with peeps. And it does seem that strangers do things not caring how anyone else feels about what they do. I do hope that you are being given the respect in real life that we all feel for you here, because its considerable...

Spank-A-Thon · Jun 10th, 2004, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happy_doughnut

And what does decency have to do with being "stupidly overly sentisitive?"
Maybe I'm one of those sensitive people, but I know plenty of others that aren't and they get just as offended by these overly rude remarks, if not more. Maybe not to some, but to others, these things, when they occur with little distance apart, are shameful.

Seeing as you picked up on one of my statements, please allow my retort. There are comments which should not be made. I can perfectly understand if you would be offended if you were called a "sexy little minx" or something like that. However, if a woman is offended by being called "love", "sweetheart" or "babe" then I'm sorry but it is over-sensitive. These are terms of endearment that are used by both sexes frequently.

In many shops the asisstants will refer to me as "love" - there's one girl who works in the local McD's who refers to people as "babe".

I totally agree with you 100% that certain actions are not to be tolerated and can be deemed offensive, but some actions and words are nothing more than a way of life. I don't know about where you live, but here in the North of England the word "love" is used all the time by people, irrespecitve of sex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by happy_doughnut

So in essence, I was not only talking about women, but about a person in general. It just so happens that it a lot easier to identify this subject in correlation with women, be it fair or unfair.

That and because of what happened yesterday, I felt quite bad, and I was looking to see that you guys would understand, as that would have been comforting, but I guess not.

The problem was you titled the post "Women are not meat" and then bashed the male of the species. You can't expect us to not respond. If you'd have told us about your experience in a different way I'm sure you would have had everyone offer their support - but unfortunately your words when read looked like a rip on men.

I think you'll find, in essence we all agree that there is no place for certain behaviours irrespective of sex.

- S

Redpyramidhead · Jun 10th, 2004, 04:38 AM

OH Mena... I did not mean for you to take my post personally. I was trying to voice my opinions in the style of a heated discussion and I made the mistake of assuming you would take it that way, but looking back at my post I now realize the harshness in it.

My main point was merely that it goes both ways and obviously from everything you said you understand that completely. And you are probably right. I probably should know you better than to think you were shallow enough to not consider the other side of the story. In fact, I do, but I guess when I read your post I temporarily forgot the source and felt the need to make the point I made.

On the flipside, I think that you should know me well enough to know that I am sensitive enough to know the difference between flattering a women and being obnoxious or hurtful. The last thing I want to do is treat a women without the respect she deserves. You know this about me. I have had tons of conversations with you about the women in my life that I wouldn't go into such detail with with just anyone. I cherished every one of them because I believed in that so strongly.

What I find sad, though, is that I think some guys feel ashamed to be men this day and age because of all of the double standards. It is this mentality that causes a lot of problems in relationships. Working environment ones, platonic, and ones that involve more. With all the progress that has been made in the women's rights movements over the decades it seems like there is no balance involved and men are seen as the enemy instead of equal human beings with which a common goal of working together efficiently needs to be achieved. I have always believed strongly in the rights of women and I want to make that loud and clear to all of you hear and now. I cry in my solitude for the oppression of all human beings, especially those targeted by those in power.

Women are still sold into sexual slavery all over the world. Some are kidnapped as children and sold to japan and told there is no other way of existence, some are sold by their families right here in the U.S., and some are taught by their mothers how to work the streets because they've known no other way in this world of men doing horrible exploitive things to to women and it is disgusting. This total utter disregard for a woman as our balance, our spiritual partner and soul mate in life, the ability to learn so much from eachother in true platonic relationships. I AM ANGRY!!! This ruins women and men!!!!!! Look at what we are doing to ourselves, world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For those reasons that send shockwaves of negativity throughout the worldwide female community and their distrust of men I blame them not. But, as we progress as a society, we must realize we are both at fault for the smaller things in every day life that can lead to bigger problems.

So, I think I should make it clear that I agree with kupo artist the most. For those lucky enough to have been to a country where there are places not strongly effected by mainstrem media conformist culture, one can see something truelly amazing. When I was in Colombia last January I saw places where male and females treated eachother in a completely different light than you see here and nobody was worried about the way they looked to everybody else. They just wanted to live in PEACE with eachother. It is more complicated than that obviously, but there was elements of that simplicity there. It was beautiful. The structure of everything isn't perfect, but for some reason ppl seem genuinely happy there. I wonder if I was dreaming that.

So, my final point is, be proud of being born a woman and be proud of being born a man. You are not supposed to feel inherently bad for being either male or female. You are supposed to recognize your role as a human being and what it means because apathy to media created society cannot cut it anymore if we are to save ourselves. Fuck Britney Spears. And Fuck Vin Diesel. We are not as different as they want us to believe, but we are also unique and should be proud. Because we each have qualities special to the success of humanity, working together.

Ummm... I've said enough. I love ya Mena you know I do, dear friend

_RED_ stuff

merylsilverburg · Jun 10th, 2004, 08:19 AM

Quote: