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Apr 9th, 2003, 05:11 PM | #1 |
Carpe Diem Baby!
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Liverpool, UK
Age: 49
Posts: 664
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Freedom for Iraq?
I've been watching Sky News and Fox News for the past couple of hours and the scenes in Baghdad are truly over-whelming.
Despite my opposition to war and Bush/Blair's decisions, seeing the Iraqi people dancing and singing in the streets is truly something to behold. To see the Iraqi people pull down Saddam's statue and hit it with shoes (an Iraqi insult) makes me feel happy for them. It's definitely not over yet, but I am proud of the British and US Armed Forces. They've risked their lives for politicians, but through their actions have managed to bring joy to many Iraqi people. I only pray now that the Iraqi people will finally find the peace and freedom they so badly need. - S
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Apr 9th, 2003, 08:17 PM | #2 |
::Viewtiful::
Joined: May 2002
Location: Nisan Sect.
Age: 36
Posts: 508
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Yep, it's exactly why I support the war 100%, because I wanted to see something like this happen, something as beautiful as a whole country proclaiming it's long awaited and complete freedom.
But as you said, it's far from over... |
Apr 9th, 2003, 11:28 PM | #3 | |
pazparacolombia
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Restless dreams...
Age: 43
Posts: 2,002
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Re: Freedom for Iraq?
Quote:
And death and injury to countless others. _RED_ stuff
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Apr 11th, 2003, 10:08 PM | #4 | ||
Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
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Quote:
Also its great to see the Iraqi people celebrate like that just goes to show how bad it was for them. I mean I heard that Saddam declined Humanitarian Aid for the United Nations and those palaces are worth thousands if not millions of dollars. Quote:
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Apr 11th, 2003, 10:35 PM | #5 | |
::Viewtiful::
Joined: May 2002
Location: Nisan Sect.
Age: 36
Posts: 508
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Re: Re: Freedom for Iraq?
Quote:
I think the deaths of 100 is a fair trade off for the freedom of a country which consists of thousands and thousands of people. |
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Apr 12th, 2003, 06:38 AM | #6 |
Teacher Banzai
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Holy Forest Academy
Age: 46
Posts: 942
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Estimated Iraqi civillian deaths stand at around 10,000 right now since the heavy fighting and the overwhelming of the hospitals in Baghdad and Basra. The anarchy currently ruling the streets of major Iraqi cities is sure to kill many more until we get our **** together and impose some order.
Estimated Iraqi SOLDIER dead are between 5 and 15,000. Many bodies were buried during "Shock and Awe" and many more are unaccounted for. The numbers of paramilitary deaths as yet remains unclear. Just a random factoid, the casualties in the Iraqi army (largely forcibly conscripted) in the first Gulf War was 100,000, many of those inflicted when the Iraqis were in full retreat. I think that the Iraqi people deserve freedom, but they did not deserve to be delivered freedom via a M.O.A.B. or bunker buster, or the 120mm depleted uranium shell of an abrams.. I think that the way this war was conducted and started was wrong, in violation of both American Law and International Law, and unless the Bush administration does a complete turnaround and seriously starts working to make Iraq a bastion of freedom and good quality of life this war will only breed more hatred against the American people. Of course, I rather doubt that Bush and his neo-conservative, murderous allies will follow through with their promises. But rather abandon Iraq to it's own devices much like they have done in Afghanistan; keeping us in a perpetual state of war so the country doesn't have time before Dubya's next election to realize how much he has ****ed up the country. Hell, we're already priming Syria and Iran as the next targets. And North Korea is practically clamouring for a war with that crazy little bastard Kim Jong Il as it's regime leader. EDIT: Spank. Buddy, don't watch FAUX or Sky news, man. It's nothing but a propaganda tool since this american administration has taken over. I'd reccommend Reuters, C-SPAN, or Arab News
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I am the Thornn in your side. The Matrix has you. |
Apr 13th, 2003, 06:22 AM | #7 |
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: u.s.a
Posts: 81
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i just can't wait til my brother comes home from the war where
he his right now in iraq and hope the us troops and uk troops come home soon ..even know i will get spam for this but i hope saddam is dead |
Apr 13th, 2003, 03:23 PM | #8 |
Retired...
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Location: Swamp hill.
Age: 37
Posts: 1,632
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Well I don't about you guys but with this war I'm feeling safer and safer each day, I support all that Bush has done and I sure am proud to be an American
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Apr 13th, 2003, 09:13 PM | #9 |
Teacher Banzai
Joined: Mar 2002
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Age: 46
Posts: 942
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S4H..
Why? I mean.. I'm not being sarcastic, seriously, why do you feel safer? Why do you support "all that Bush has done"..? Seriously, dude. Please, tell me.
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I am the Thornn in your side. The Matrix has you. |
Apr 13th, 2003, 09:44 PM | #10 |
Stationary Wonderer
Joined: Apr 2002
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Age: 39
Posts: 1,140
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Ok Black Thorn where do U get your numbers from. Last I checked there was never an official estimation on any figures of Civilian deaths in Iraq . Maybe some numbers thrown around by the Iraqi government but of course thats gonna be complete Bullshit as most reports from them have recently. And there were many reports of the Iraqi government killing their own people and using them as human shields. I respect your opinion because you seem like a well educated man but other than that your anti American views can go strait to hell. It seems like nothing Bush could do would please U because you are bent on putting the American government down at every turn. The war went smoothly, their were casualties and the thousands of grateful and more free than ever iraqis who are chanting "Go U.S !" and "We love Bush" in the streets where they once would have been beaten or killed for such a public display seem to think it was worth it. (Of course the families of the dead civilians may think otherwise, thats what sucks about war) Anyway thats just what I think...in the long and even short run this war was a GREAT thing for the iraqi people assuming they get a government that works with them instead of against them. You say there were better ways to do this effectively Blackthorn !?. Ok what would your plan be genius....maybe you know more about polotics then the people who run this country (Fat chance)
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Apr 13th, 2003, 10:47 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Ohio
Age: 36
Posts: 464
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Do you mean to tell me that there could only be 5 Iraqi soldiers dead? What kind of estimation is that? And if 10,000 civilians have died then that has to be Iraqis killing Iraqis. And what can you do when Iraq moves key targets next heavily populated areas?
And 10,000 is no where close to the number of people the Iraqi government have killed and tortured. What plan would you have imposed? Not go to war and let Saddam have his way? What you are asking for is impossible to give. You want bombs that only destroy the target. You want bullets to only hit enemies. You want every life saved. It can't happen! Open your damn eyes and see what you are saying. You have done nothing but accuse the US of being a nation of lies, deceit, and murderers. I, for one, do not enjoy being called any of those names! If this war is to breed more hatred then every Iraqi civilian who is filled with joy over this are pretty good actors. If this war had not happened would things in Iraq be different? Would Saddam become a better person? I don't think so. He was given over 10 years to change for the better and he didn't!
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"Know thy enemy and know thy self," "Find naught to fear in 100 battles." "Know not thy enemy, but know thy self," "Find victory and defeat in equal measure" "Know thy enemy, but know not thy self," "Find defeat in every battle." Sun Tzu |
Apr 13th, 2003, 11:47 PM | #12 |
Teacher Banzai
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Holy Forest Academy
Age: 46
Posts: 942
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I get my numbers from independent news sources, WeaponX. Outside the bush administration's sphere of influence and as closed to unbiased as you can get.
Ever heard of Reuters? ArabNews (Saudi.. it's very interesting to see the progression of opinion columns from pro-coalition to anti as their correspondent gets further into Iraq)? 5-15000 Iraqi soldier dead comes from the US military estimates added up from CentCom breifing to CentCom breifing. Civillian casualties are covered very thoroughly by most middle eastern sources, and I chose the most conservative number out of those. As for me being Anti-American, you can stuff that, kid. I'm anti-Bush because the bastard stole the office from the american people and has lead us into an unjust war, and has worked along with his cabinet and that nazi John Ashcroft to strip away the freedoms of our nation. Have you READ Patriot Act II? That's what's unamerican. I'm excercising and trying to defend our citizen's rights and future safety. Yes, the war went smoothly, for us. I'm sorry but the fact is the politicians above our army rushed us through it in order to get it over with before public opinion could shift in America like it has for the rest of the world. He had us tearass through the desert and leave our supply lines open to attack, he dropped CLUSTER BOMBS in civillian villiages, and his whole shock and awe campaign has killed thousands.. or did you think all those targets were empty and entirely free of civillians..? You wanna know my plan? Fine. 1) Wait a further 90 days before having gone to war. Aquiesce in front of the Security Council and Mr. Blix repeatedly and grow more reluctant to do so each time. Then AFTER giving further repeated chances, petition congress to declare war legally at least in this country, instead of just passing some bill that lets the president declare it unilaterally. 2) Do not try and scrape together a rag-tag group of countries and only have three of them fight with us then call it a coalition of the willing. Make being in the coalition mean more than not ACTIVELY FIGHTING FOR SADDAM. 3) Instead of sending over half our army and 3 carrier groups over to stomp a poorly trained, badly equipped dictator's army and spreading our forces out all over the country. Advance over a period of weeks instead of months, set up foward bases to shorten supply lines and not allow Iraqi snipers to harry our convoys. 4) The Iraqi civillians harbor intense feelings of resentment toward us for ABANDONING THEM in 1991 and getting over 200,000 shi'ites killed when they tried to rebel the first time. Instead of bombing the hell out of the cities, cutting off the water and power, and skirting any real combat (Basra for the first week and a half, anyone?) I would drop leaflets the night before our forces advance on the city after a very limited number of surgical missile strikes on truly key targets. Taking out a few key facilities then attacking full force, likely inciting at least some degree of rebellion by showing some clout, would throw the enemy into more dissarray than hitting them repeatedly with thousands and thousands of tons of ordinance, and it would not give them the free tap of propaganda ammunition to spin it to the Iraqi people as a cowardly, merciless assault. Oh, and actually get the Humanitarian Aid to each city as it's liberated. Which would be possible since we instead of blazing over the desert highways established a southern front and took a little while. Open up the Northern front after Basra is eliminated, employ peshmerga help same as we have been. 5) Bombard to elimination for 24/7 the Nebuchadnezzar and Medina divisions (assuming that they were not called further foward in response to the slower progression) in the days before our forces reach the capital. Only these two forces. Then after they're gone drop leaflets over the city and over the republican gaurd positions basically saying simply "We held back.." or something imposing but being clear we're offering a way out. Instead of pandering for surrender for weeks. 6) Drop more leaflets on the city, showing the cities to the south (with already established police forces and utilities!) and urging Iraqis to desert and aid American and British forces. Attack Baghdad same as we did. 7) DON'T LET THE CITY FALL INTO ANARCHY AFTER WE FUCKING LIBERATE IT AND HAVE PRICELESS TREASURES FROM THE DAWN OF CIVILIZATION BE DESTROYED! 8) Tape Dubya's and Rummy's mouths shut. Let Blair do the talking. 9) Actually rebuild the country instead of abandoning it like we did Afghanistan.
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I am the Thornn in your side. The Matrix has you. |
Apr 14th, 2003, 12:06 AM | #13 | |||
Teacher Banzai
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Holy Forest Academy
Age: 46
Posts: 942
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Quote:
I seriously hope you were just being sarcastic. Quote:
The ADMINISTRATION has bullied our country into an illegal war that will stymie our political peacekeeping power for probably generations. The ADMINISTRATION has proved ignorant and insensitive to actually liberating and rebuilding this country and bred even more hatred in the middle east, hatred that will not be taken out against the ruling elite, but against the poor shmucks who got dragged along with it or our troops in the Gulf. OR BOTH. I don't want everybody to be safe. I'm not naieve enough to believe that is possible, or believe anyone who really knows the situation and has demonstrated as much thinks it's possible.. *coughs*.. I just know that there were better ways to handle this situation after Dumbya threw it out of control, and I know that it was unnecessary before he did so. Quote:
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I am the Thornn in your side. The Matrix has you. |
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Apr 14th, 2003, 05:27 AM | #14 | ||
Talk to the hand
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Manchester
Posts: 3,520
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Re: Freedom for Iraq?
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah so they will be free soon.
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Apr 14th, 2003, 11:53 AM | #15 |
Retired...
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Location: Swamp hill.
Age: 37
Posts: 1,632
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Thornn...your my friend and I am def not looking for a debate with you...well I'd lose but still..
but what I meant was with Saddam's loss of power, I feel that the chances of another 9/11 or some other form of attack on our soils is greatly reduced, and plus with Iraqi's freedom its making the entire middle east a safer place as well, but I know that Iraq isn't the enitre problem, but I viewed it as the top...I'm for this war cause I want an end to all this bullshit we're always hearing about in the news about all these suicide bombings and other form of pety attacks, and war seems like it's the only way to accomplish it... You can try to change my mind though but I'm standing firm with my ideas, so there would really be point, sorry man thats just how I feel
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and for now the tired soldier sheathes his sword... |
Apr 14th, 2003, 12:54 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Ohio
Age: 36
Posts: 464
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The reasons for going to war have been the same since we went to war in Afghanistan. Those reasons are STILL true. We are in war to prevent further terrorism to the Iraqi people which goes along with freeing the Iraqi people and protecting ourselves. We destroy the weapons of mass destruction while going through. If liberation was not the plan then a lot more people could be dead.
If you really think your strategy is the best one why don't you join the army? If you really think your plan has no faults then I say you are full of yourself. I'm not saying the Coalition's plan was perfect, no plan is perfect. And you have not only called the government murderers, scandals, and liars, but you have called every war supporter out there those names! You have called them ignorant, careless, and selfless. And what further makes me angry is this: Quote:
And if you think Bush came up with the battle strategy then you are giving him a HUGE complement. I, for one, think that it was a good strategy. You are crazy to think that other countries should have fought in the war. It would just send people who do not have the training or the equipment to fight and die. It would just slow down the Coalition forces. What the hell is the point in having all this technology for the single purpose of war if you are not going to use it when you go to war? I think that there are worse strategies to go about this war. I read a number of strategies before the war started and after. Some predicted a lot of Coalition troops being killed in combat. Some went as far as using nukes if a chemical attack happened. As far as I know there have not been a substantial amount of Coalition troops killed. I think blazing through was the right strategy. It was clearly not looked for and it has saved Iraq by keeping most of their oil fields in tact. I think oil is more important to the rebuilding of Iraq then some artifacts. Oil, after all, is from the dawn of civilization.
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"Know thy enemy and know thy self," "Find naught to fear in 100 battles." "Know not thy enemy, but know thy self," "Find victory and defeat in equal measure" "Know thy enemy, but know not thy self," "Find defeat in every battle." Sun Tzu |
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Apr 14th, 2003, 01:13 PM | #17 |
Retired...
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Swamp hill.
Age: 37
Posts: 1,632
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...can't we all just talk about videogames again...
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and for now the tired soldier sheathes his sword... |
Apr 14th, 2003, 02:43 PM | #18 | |||||||
Teacher Banzai
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Holy Forest Academy
Age: 46
Posts: 942
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Quote:
And maybe, if we really follow through on Iraq's reconstruction (I'm banking on a new administration in a year for this to happen) and then follow through with the plan calling for a Palestinian state within three years and force that warmonger Sharon back, maybe we can have peace, and we'll be safer.. But that really all depends on everything going right and the Arab community changing their own propaganda to try and get peace for their people. I was going to comment about the President's new "warnings" to Syria, and how familiar they feel, but I'm not. Quote:
Al Quaeda and Osama Bin Laden WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED TOGETHER. Saddam's government and person was secular, Osama's a religions fanatic. They hate each other. Don't even get me started on "WMD"s in Iraq. We've found a few drums of pesticide, some chem suits, a few empty rockets, and had to break international seals to find any signifigant degree of Uranium in drums. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
90 more days in two 45 day extension blocks would have repaired our image. Making us appear at LEAST more willing to have let the inspection teams work and disarm Saddam without violence. And it would have made France, Germany, Russia, and China seem like THEY were the ones in the wrong for continually flat-out vetoing any action. That, coupled with CONGRESSIONAL CONSENT TO GO TO THIS PARTICULAR WAR INSTEAD OF JUST PERMISSION TO THE PRESIDENT TO UNILATERALLY DECLARE IT, would have made the US at least seem more reluctant to have actually taken this to fighting and put Iraqi citizens and US soldiers in harm's way. Quote:
And while the US Army is the best equipped and best trained on the planet, it's nothing but arrogance and ignorance to think that there isn't another army on the planet that could have handled this with the US and the British. Oh, and those 3000 australians, and that one polish jeep driver. "What the hell is the point of having all this technology for the single purpose of war if you are not going to use it when you go to war?" You're fucking kidding, right? You warmonger. Just 'cause you've got huge stockpiles of tomahawk missiles doesn't mean you should blow EVERYTHING UP once you get into a military action with them. GOD, I can't even believe you're so ignorant about the human cost of these things. Quote:
Watching a little flash movie on "Urban Warfare" saying that there could be signifigant coalition casualties, then listening to an audio of some nutbag saying that we should NUKE THE COUNTRY. Y'know what? To hell with this. I back up my arguments with facts and provide sources, you just spout rhetoric and character attacks. I'm done arguing with you when you can't even field a decent, logical debate. You've made it to the ignore list. Congratulations! *pops new years bottle poppers and throws confetti*
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I am the Thornn in your side. The Matrix has you. |
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Apr 14th, 2003, 04:32 PM | #19 |
Stationary Wonderer
Joined: Apr 2002
Location: In front of my computer
Age: 39
Posts: 1,140
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I think Blackthorn that maybe you should look at this from the point of the Iraqi people and not from your point. You see you sit at home safe as can be barely being affected by this war at all yet you act as though your opinion is LAW. The truth is have this war be told afterwards. After the threats to the iraqi people have been eliminated. Then ask them how they feel about the war . Id bet anything they will be happy as can be...thats what happens when U get freed after 30 plus years of Oppression. They are in Iraq living like thier sub human while U sit at home and whine/bitch/moan about the war that has little effect on you in comparison to the people actually in Iraq. The soldiers we send over their SIGNED up to be in the army understanding full well what they were getting themselves into. I respect them like no others for that but I dont feel sorry for them having to go to war, thats THERE JOB. If the tables were turned and we were the truly oppressed ones I bet Ud feel completely different about this. Instead of throwing around BS lies like "Bush stole the presidency" youd be begging another country who was blessed with wealth and a good economy to help you out a little. I dont think the strategy would matter much to you would it . The freedom of thousands is more important than the lives of a few 100..thats what I believe. This war will have eternally positive effects for the world. (Especially Iraq). So try and have some empathy put your self in an iraqi civilians shoes who wants their children to have a better life than they did . But seing as how your freedoms never been threatened you wouldn't be able to I guess . Many of us have been spoiled by freedom so much so that we think we have to express it as much as possible and as strongly as possible. You take yourself FAR to seriously Thorn. If you feel your right(And better at polotics than the people that run the U.S) ..become a politician and make those changes happen. Untill then your opinions are nothing more than that OPINIONS (Not Fact) Realize that.
P.S And also......I dont trust your silly little "reports" that come out of iraqi news organization that could be and very likely are still under the influence of Saddams regime. Im sure The U.S killed thousands upon thousands of irqi civilians . Give me a fucking break . You believe these unofficial iraqi sources that come out of no where...come on !. Pull your head out of your ass for just a second. And also...no one dragged you into this debate my friend you posted your opinion as if it were LAW and all anyone else has done is posted theres in response to your outrageous stance. Also Blackthorn I apologize if you take any of the above as a personal offense because I dont mean to turn this Debate into a fullblown argument or personal front
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The kinder, gentler, Vicious Beretta55- "fo sheezy heezy neezy weezy flipity floppity floop" Lost Myth- "I already know you are something special and I think the Pistons did too, because then why would they have won the trophy on your birthday dude? Anonymous- "Whos more to blame, me for being quote un quote gullible ?, or him for lying !?" |
Apr 14th, 2003, 07:42 PM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Ohio
Age: 36
Posts: 464
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Here are my sources that I read of the War Strategies:
https://freerepublic.com/focus/news/722115/posts https://ia.clickondetroit.com/news/1879592/detail.html https://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.2...q.Invasion.htm https://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/rsepReso...middleEast.asp https://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/100702.html I lost another good link, but 5 should be enough. These are not the best, most respected or trusted websites, but they do offer support of what they said. I am not saying I believe everything here, because I don't. But you wanted to know my sources and that is just the tip of the iceberg. And the planning of the rebuilding of Iraq has started: https://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=2563438 Not a lot but it still has started. I just hope we don't put another dictator on the hill. Quote:
And I have read every post in this thread. Some more then once. I do my research before every post, you can ask a friend. And let me further state that you have indeed called a lot of American's ignorant. If you do believe that Bush stole the presidency you are saying right there that most US citizens are ignorant by believing in a system and being taken advantage of. This was not the first or second time some one has won the election like that. There are other incidents too... And what I meant by "What the hell is the point of having all this technology for the single purpose of war if you are not going to use it when you go to war?" is that if we have weapons like that why should we allow other countries get involved when we have much better weapons already made. Not that we should fire every single missile or drop every single bomb in our arsenal. It is careless and expensive. Name an allied country that has the technology and weapons to stand up to the US and British? Any way this war is about over and it makes no sense to defend it when it is over. Neither of us are going to change our opinions so it is senseless to continue on. If you have anything you want to say then PM me. The only thing that Saddam can do would more then justify war...
__________________
"Know thy enemy and know thy self," "Find naught to fear in 100 battles." "Know not thy enemy, but know thy self," "Find victory and defeat in equal measure" "Know thy enemy, but know not thy self," "Find defeat in every battle." Sun Tzu |
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