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[merylsilverburg]

I realize there is already an MGS3 discussion thread, but this is strictly for the endings for the MGS series after a person's completed MGS3. I created this thread in case anyone wants to discuss and try to piece together the story/plot twists from all 3 games. Okay, here we go.

First, my memory is terrible, so I will have stupid/ridiculous questions to ask. Anyone who can put all the pieces together and explain to me, I'd be more than glad to hear it.

1. Okay, at the end of MGS3 when Ocelot is talking on the phone, who is the Director?

2. So...who or what is Ocelot? Is he really an American then? Because he is a part of the Patriots/Philosophers and the whole "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" thing from MGS2. Plus, he was ADAM after all...

2. Stupid question alert: I missed this somehow, but why did the Patriots take away The Boss' child? Who do you think is The Boss' son? Since this was during the 60's, if the son survived, the kid should be around his forties by MGS2...unless I'm miscalculating. Do you guys think this has some sort of connection with Olga's daughter being taken from her too?

3. Another stupid question: In MGS2, what is the significance of Raiden then? Is he supposed to carry on the "legacy" or live in peace with Rose and their child? Since Raiden's real name is Jack (I think) and Big Boss' real name is John/Jack, is Raiden supposed to be the new era's "Big Boss" and his son will carry on and this cycle will never end? They're all tools of the government and all that?

4. In the very, very first MGS (called "Metal Gear" on the NES), what was Big Boss' reason for creating the metal gear and setting up the whole Outer Heaven operation? Just wanted to know if Big Boss was just pissed off at the US government for what happened to him in MGS3 and wanted revenge...

Uh...that's about it for now...

...as I said again, if anyone has pieced together all the information from all 3 games and could explain everything to me, I'd be happy...

[Reid]

Okay, I'll do my best to answer as many of these as I can. These are just my interpretations though, so some of it may be incorrect.

1/Not completely positive who the Director is . . . which really baffled me because they put some very dramatic music on when he referred to the other person on the phone as such. Director of the CIA perhaps, though?

2/The Boss' son was born during her work with the Cobras in Normandy during World War II. That would mean he was born in 1945 so he'd be 19 in Snake Eater and around 60ish during MGS2 I believe. Since The Boss' son was considered one of the blood-related Philosophers (due to The Boss as a Philosopher's tool) he would most likely be ADAM/Ocelot. This is really hard to explain but I believe the game was getting at that.

3/The significance of Raiden in Sons of Liberty is that he is a return of the "ultimate soldier" working for the Patriot purpose. The very first Philosopher's tool is The Boss. When Naked Snake kills her and realizes he has fallen right into the Philosopher's hands as their new pawn he inherits the title of Big Boss as given by President Johnson at the end. The "Les Enfants Terrible" project is started by the Patriots as insurance for a continuing soldier after Big Boss' death. Solidus, Liquid and Solid are the three clones that survive. Solidus is made President, Solid was taken in as the soldier successor and Liquid was used for nothing. Solid Snake kills Big Boss and assumes the role as Patriot tool. He kills Liquid and then begins to understand his role. Ocelot and Solid are sent to the Marine Tanker and Solid's supposed death allows him to hide from the Patriots. He goes undercover. Solidus arises as a new threat to the Patriots. He knows that he is little more than a tool and seeks to eliminate them to create freedom for the world. By now the Patriots have begun to understand that if they control media, they no longer need to rely on soldiers to keep their power. Just the same, to deal with Solidus they send in Raiden who undergoes a simulation to make him as good of a soldier with the same type of relationships as Solid. This works successfully but Solid Snake shows up and wrecks their plans. Raiden is essentially nothing more than another effort for the Patriots to have a super-soldier that can work in their favour while starting reliance on the GW system is put into place.

4/Big Boss' Outer Heaven was a reaction to seeing more Patriot interest put into Solidus than Solid. He sees the phasing out of the soldier as a necessity to them and reacts with the military state he wants to create in the uprising. This doesn't make much sense, however, because Big Boss' wasn't exactly enthusiastic about his role as a violent pawn for the Patriots at the end of Snake Eater. It could be possible that his mind shifts into acceptance of his place now and possible enthusiasm toward that way of life.

Long winded and probably lacking in clarity . . . but that's all I've got for now. 'Hope that helps a bit.

[merylsilverburg]

Originally Posted by Reid

1/Not completely positive who the Director is . . . which really baffled me because they put some very dramatic music on when he referred to the other person on the phone as such. Director of the CIA perhaps, though?

Okay, I played the game again for the second time and finished it...I heard this section and..um...this is probably a very far stretch and maybe very bizarre but...could the "Director" be...Kojima? I know, I know, it's strange but since Kojima has a weird sense of humor, it could be possible that Ocelot was talking to the Director (Kojima) and since Kojima is the one who planned this whole thing...maybe it's like a joke or something...how Kojima is the one behind it all?

Originally Posted by Reid

2/The Boss' son was born during her work with the Cobras in Normandy during World War II. That would mean he was born in 1945 so he'd be 19 in Snake Eater and around 60ish during MGS2 I believe. Since The Boss' son was considered one of the blood-related Philosophers (due to The Boss as a Philosopher's tool) he would most likely be ADAM/Ocelot. This is really hard to explain but I believe the game was getting at that.

Omg, that would make sense! Wow, I wonder if The Boss knew at all though...that Ocelot was her son (if this is true).

Originally Posted by Reid

3/The significance of Raiden in Sons of Liberty is that he is a return of the "ultimate soldier" working for the Patriot purpose. The very first Philosopher's tool is The Boss. When Naked Snake kills her and realizes he has fallen right into the Philosopher's hands as their new pawn he inherits the title of Big Boss as given by President Johnson at the end. The "Les Enfants Terrible" project is started by the Patriots as insurance for a continuing soldier after Big Boss' death. Solidus, Liquid and Solid are the three clones that survive. Solidus is made President, Solid was taken in as the soldier successor and Liquid was used for nothing. Solid Snake kills Big Boss and assumes the role as Patriot tool. He kills Liquid and then begins to understand his role. Ocelot and Solid are sent to the Marine Tanker and Solid's supposed death allows him to hide from the Patriots. He goes undercover. Solidus arises as a new threat to the Patriots. He knows that he is little more than a tool and seeks to eliminate them to create freedom for the world. By now the Patriots have begun to understand that if they control media, they no longer need to rely on soldiers to keep their power. Just the same, to deal with Solidus they send in Raiden who undergoes a simulation to make him as good of a soldier with the same type of relationships as Solid. This works successfully but Solid Snake shows up and wrecks their plans. Raiden is essentially nothing more than another effort for the Patriots to have a super-soldier that can work in their favour while starting reliance on the GW system is put into place.

*bows down* Thank you so much Reid, this is what I needed to know. You explain everything clearly, thank you.

Originally Posted by Reid

4/Big Boss' Outer Heaven was a reaction to seeing more Patriot interest put into Solidus than Solid. He sees the phasing out of the soldier as a necessity to them and reacts with the military state he wants to create in the uprising. This doesn't make much sense, however, because Big Boss' wasn't exactly enthusiastic about his role as a violent pawn for the Patriots at the end of Snake Eater. It could be possible that his mind shifts into acceptance of his place now and possible enthusiasm toward that way of life.

Ah, okay...yeah, that could be it, otherwise it doesn't make much sense about Big Boss' reasons for the whole Outer Heaven thing.

Thanks again Reid. ^_^

[Frozen]

Reid, you are a genius.

My comments:

1) Director of the CIA, indeed. I have no doubt of that.

2) From my personal knowledge and point of view, it would make no sense to me that Ocelot would be The Boss son for a simple fact: There is no way in hell that a MAJOR would be that young. As a matter of fact, Ocelot looked too damn young as it was to have that rank, but I have met a couple of majors that are probably on their latest 20´s or first 30´s.

But I´ve never known of a 19 year old Major, not even a Captain, it is even hard to see a second Liuteanant with that age.

Now, I´m talking based on what I´ve seen on my own experience, I am aware also that the way the military woks nowadays is different than the way it worked back then, and that Ocelot belonged to a different military to ours, and I do not know how they worked.

Putting that aside, it would make sense that Ocelot would be her son.

3)Ever since I played and finished this game I got strong beliefs that Raiden is actually blood-related to Snake, by being John Doe´s son (EVA his mother) I´ve got to say though, it´s just a thought. It has also crossed my mind that he would be a clone of Major Raikov (which would make sense from another point of view, although I think that the whole thing with Raikov was just a joke of Kojima´s) (oh, and have you seen his underwear? It has a "ray" for the logo brand. LMAO! )

4) The deal with Outer Heaven looks to me now pretty much the same thing as what Solidus tried to do, which was to rid the world from the Patriots. The difference that I like to believe, though, is that Big Boss was only trying to destroy them, Solidus not only wanted to destroy them but also have their power.

[Urahara Kisuke]

Wow, such good opinions and views on MGS. I wish that I could understand this stuff like you guys. Thanks Reid and Frozen for you explanations and also for merylsilverburg asking these questions. Good job!!

[Frozen]

Poemy, just remember that half of the stuff I´ve said are nothing but speculations, so don´t take my words for granted.

Want to "understand the game the way we do"?

Beat each game at least 3 times and you will :B

To tell you the truth, I think I only understand a 25% of the messaqge given.

[Vic Viper]

if your still doubting that the boss and ocelot are not related, try calling EVA in the cave (after Ocelot boss battle), she will tell you the truth about Ocelot.

what the heck heres the whole codec convo between snake and eva about ocelot...

Spoiler: show

Jack: EVA, I wanted to ask you about Ocelot…
EVA: Yeah, I know. He’s pretty infatuated with you, isn’t he?
Jack: That’s not what I meant. Aren’t the Ocelots an elite unit?
EVA: Yeah.
Jack: So how’d he get to be their commander? He can’t be any older than 18 or 19. I can’t believe he’s already a major…
EVA: I heard from the Colonel that he’s been given…special treatment.
Jack: Special treatment?
EVA: Yeah. He’s the son of some legendary hero or something.
Jack: No wonder he seems to have the right stuff… So who is this legendary hero, anyway?
EVA: Beats me.
Jack: …
EVA: The Colonel never told me. All I heard was that his mother was supposedly shot in the gut during battle and that he was born right there, with bullets whizzing past them.
Jack: A pregnant woman in the middle of a battle?
EVA: That’s what I heard. They say that when they stitched her up, the scar was shaped like a snake.
Jack: Well, that’s battlefield medicine for you. What about his father, this legendary hero?
EVA: He didn’t tell me. I don’t think Ocelot’s ever met his parents.
Jack: Are they dead?
EVA: Maybe, I don’t know. There were a lot of MIAs back then, during the last days of the war. Ocelot probably would have ended up the same way. But he was taken in and raised by GRU and Volgin.
Jack: Because he was special?
EVA: That’s my guess.

[Qjij_jijQ]

If that doesn't completely annihilate any kind of doubt you might have on the whole "Ocelot is The Boss's son" thing Frozen, I don't know what will... cheers to Vic!

[Oderus]

Can't remember who said this on the codec but i quote "Ocelots mother was a great hero who gave birth to him on the battle field." And at the end of the game The boss shows her scar

[Frozen]

Ocelot is her son, indeed.

:B

That sucks. A legendary hero´s son turns into a legendary war criminal.

[The Echuu]

Alright, I got to the cave on my 3rd playthrough and called EVA about 10 times, and never got that conversation. All I get is stuff about finding a Torch. What gives? How far in the cave were you when you called her?

[Zellodine]

wow....that was pretty deep.

[Infernal Mass]

Ocelot is the last living decendant from one the patriots, i think that's why they trust him as thier agent. He must've known Boss was his mother, even though she didn't know he was her son.

[LeCrap]

Originally Posted by merylsilverburg

I realize there is already an MGS3 discussion thread, but this is strictly for the endings for the MGS series after a person's completed MGS3. I created this thread in case anyone wants to discuss and try to piece together the story/plot twists from all 3 games. Okay, here we go.

First, my memory is terrible, so I will have stupid/ridiculous questions to ask. Anyone who can put all the pieces together and explain to me, I'd be more than glad to hear it.

1. Okay, at the end of MGS3 when Ocelot is talking on the phone, who is the Director?

2. So...who or what is Ocelot? Is he really an American then? Because he is a part of the Patriots/Philosophers and the whole "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo" thing from MGS2. Plus, he was ADAM after all...

2. Stupid question alert: I missed this somehow, but why did the Patriots take away The Boss' child? Who do you think is The Boss' son? Since this was during the 60's, if the son survived, the kid should be around his forties by MGS2...unless I'm miscalculating. Do you guys think this has some sort of connection with Olga's daughter being taken from her too?

3. Another stupid question: In MGS2, what is the significance of Raiden then? Is he supposed to carry on the "legacy" or live in peace with Rose and their child? Since Raiden's real name is Jack (I think) and Big Boss' real name is John/Jack, is Raiden supposed to be the new era's "Big Boss" and his son will carry on and this cycle will never end? They're all tools of the government and all that?

4. In the very, very first MGS (called "Metal Gear" on the NES), what was Big Boss' reason for creating the metal gear and setting up the whole Outer Heaven operation? Just wanted to know if Big Boss was just pissed off at the US government for what happened to him in MGS3 and wanted revenge...

Uh...that's about it for now...

...as I said again, if anyone has pieced together all the information from all 3 games and could explain everything to me, I'd be happy...

1. The Director is Kruschev...I think that's what they called the leader of the USSR.

2.a. He is from American. Him and the real Eva defected. Then in MGS1 and 2, he's revolver Ocelot.

2.b.The Boss' sons are Solid Snake and Liquid Snakes...his clones.

3. I dunno about Radien. I just know he was the Russian officer in Gransygrad, or whatever the complex was called.

4. No idea.