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[Esjay]

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

First of all, whatever Bush did before his presidency is entirely HIS business and nobody else's. All of those seem like nothing more than immature rumors to me, by the way. What one does before his presidency shouldn't affect his ability as a president. What does a president have to do? Make drastic decisions, and oversee everything, the president never actually ORDERS the actions that the country makes, he simply gives his "inferiors" the approval to carry out those actions.

I don't exactly favor George Bush either, but all of this fucking lame immature attacking really needs to stop. I don't know where you got all of that information, but I don't see it's valididity anywhere. I don't really like Bush, but that doesn't mean I attack his persona for the lack of nothing better to do. For shit's sake, grow up...

[BlackThornn]

You don't see it's validity, Esjay, 'cause you haven't fucking looked. All of this stuff about his "pre-presidential" life was well documented when he was actually running for president, and if you DID look, you would see every one of these things I've written is true. And every one of those "youthful indescretions" is just as relavent as Clinton boffing an intern, or Whitewater.

Were I to go into rumor, I would have mentioned him being a coke fiend, and that he "fixed" the election, as if it were fact.

Were I trying to be immature, I would have mentioned the close NAZI ties of his family during that era, the "secret deals" his father made during HIS presidency, the fact that his family has had more cumulative arrests than probably everybody's family who has posted here COMBINED. I also would have made at least one comment about his constant, self-assured smirk, or the fact that he ISN'T ALLOWED to make unscripted public speeches. Or made a joke about how there's rumors he wants to dump Laura for another wife that might give him a "male heir".

And, of course, there would have been at least three references to killer pretzels.

Like it or not, what I posted above was FACT. Our president is THAT STUPID. And not liking the fact that he holds our highest office isn't immature, or "bullshit". Nor is bringing light to the above inadequacies of the man AS a president.

I have grown up, son. I've grown up past the point of being a sheep for the republican party and it's puppet president. I've grown past the point of not caring about a president's credentials. I've grown up to the point where I don't have to attack fact by calling it fiction, and tell the person who revealed those facts he's immature.

I suggest you do the same.

[Esjay]

I'm not attacking fact by calling it fiction, and I'm not a sheep for the Republican party either. (you didn't have to insult me vaguely, you could have done it directly )

Actually, I don't really care WHAT you think, or what you think of me, for that matter. I was just trying to help you, but apparently you don't want to advance beyond these cultural defections, so I guess I'll end the argument here. *blink* oh well.

[BlackThornn]

I didn't call you a sheep, Esjay. I said you didn't look before you questioned the validity of these FACTS, then called me immature for saying them aloud.

If I'd wanted to call you a sheep, I would have done so. I was referring to the american public at large, with their 70% approval rating for this massacre.. err. Sorry. WAR.

I really do just fail to see how your previous post was aimed to help me.. I'm perfectly able to help my liberal self in these matters.. but thanks anyway.

Seriously, look some of that stuff up if you don't believe me. It's ALL true. And before "Freedom of the Press" was revoked by Mr. Ashcroft, it was (at least I was under the impression it was) widely-known fact.

Oh, and I just caught this.. "Cultural Defections"? Saywha? I could have sworn that the CONSTITUTION, the TRUE source of our freedom (NOT president Bush, or the current government) encouraged free thought and the pursuit of knowledge, which is what even the derogatory facts of Bush's past and presidency IS.

By showing my dissent, I'm showing my patriotism, and my REJECTION of the current regime's attempts to squelch those who would speak out as unpatriotic or even terrorists. Not "Defecting" from my culture; if that's really what you could call the loose alliance of coffee shops, computers, and reality TV we've turned this country into today.

[Redpyramidhead]

I LOVE THIS!!! HEH HEH HEH!!! Absolute cutthroat action going on in here!! As my grandpa would say "This is better than a matinee!" Keep discussing, everybody. Let's get more people in on this.
Props to Thornn because I certainly couldn't have said it all as well myself

I can't believe Bush went awol on his national guard duty and the american public isnt making a big deal over it, considering he's sent everyone off to war!

And what's this about Ashcroft revoking the Freedom of Press??
PLease tell me I misinterpreted that.



Arrghhhh...we are going to hell in a hand basket as I have said many times before.

_RED_ stuff

[Sword 4 Hire]

Weren't we discussing something about a Pearl Jam concert at one time...eh well

[David]

Ok guys, lets end the arguing here... I think it's a little to much, I think it's time to tie the leesh, and end it here. And everyone has a point of view of things, no one is the same.

[Redpyramidhead]

I understand why you are worried this might get out of hand David, but I also see nothing wrong with a good heated debate. As long as we can respect eachother's opinions and realize that we are all people trying to live through this confusing time trying to make what we can of it, I see nothing wrong with arguing those opinions. If we can carry this on i na civil manner (i.e. no yelling bullshit! absolute bullshit! to somebody's previous post) I say lets carry on. If the mods decide it's too much later on they can.
And yeah this was originally about a Pearl Jam concert S4H, but I think it's also about the things behind why they did what they did and the current state of Freedom of Speech in this country.

_RED_ stuff

[BlackThornn]

Oh.. good god..

I just reread all that, and I forgot the absolute most important quote from George Dubya.

Upon hearing about a web site that scathingly pointed out his wrongdoings and how he was inadequate to be president, he said this...

"There 'ought to be limits to freedom."

This is avaliable for DOWNLOAD on the web through many sites in WAV form, if this is too unbelievable for you to take.

This quote ALONE should have had the man impeached. It's a lot better cause than a president lying about finger******* an intern then lying about it to preserve his personal life somewhat.

[Kimahri]

When will this end, we have to hear it on the radio, the tv, the internet, whats next they are gonna be calling us about this. I just think we should not talk about this, cause many people have different opinions, and this could strike controversy. Its bad enough I got stuck up nosey neighbors, well I aint gonna say what I was gonna say about,

[mark0™]

Thats some cool stuff you've posted there Thorn. Im with you 100%, Bush is a Dumbass.

Didn't his daughters get caught under-aged drinking before?

I know these crimes dont mean much to average people, but to the leader of a powerful nation, who is the figure of the laws of the country, to break the laws himself, past or present, is unacceptable. Why should the person who sort of is in charge of the law be allowed or had been allowed to bend the law in his favour.

I can't imagine Bush getting Re-Elected, he actyually makes Slick Willy seem like a Saint lol.

[BlackThornn]

He's not just a dumbass. Being a dumbass makes him unfit for the job, but him and those who control him (and indeed, are controlling this country) are DANGEROUS FOR AMERICA.

Here's a couple of highlights from Patriot Act II, something that the Bush administration and in particular Mr. Ashcroft want passed.

1) SECRET ARRESTS. Section 201 would authorise secret arrests, overturning federal court decisions requiring the government to at least disclose the identy of persons it has detained in the September 11th investigation. This provision would mandate that all arrests in connection with "international terrorism" investigations be secret until an indictment is filed. Never before in our history have we permitted Secret Arrests. ..Saddam has though. And Castro..

2) ENDING CONSENT DECREES AGAINST ILLEGAL POLICE SPYING. Section 312 would automatically terminate any consent decree governming police spying abuse that was entered before September 11, 2001, no matter what the basis of that decree. It would essentially eliminate consent decrees for the future with respect to police spying, and place substantial restrictions on judicial injunctions.

3) UNCHECKED DEPORTATION AUTHORITY. Section 503 would give the attorney general unchecked power to deport foriegn nationals, including lawful permanent resident aliens, whenever he determines that their presence is inconsistent with our "national security", which is defined to include "economic interests" or "foriegn policy". The DC circuit has already held that courts cannot review what actions violate our foriegn policy and therefore this would give the attorney general license to DEPORT any foriegn national OF HIS CHOOSING.

4) STRIPPING CITIZENSHIP FOR POLITICAL ASSOCIATIONS. Section 501 would seek to strip citizenship from persons for their political associations. It would provide that even activity that is currently LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONALLY GARAUNTEED - such as belonging to or supporting the lawful activities of a group designated as "terrorist" at any time by the attorney general - would be presumptive grounds for LOSING ONE'S CITIZENSHIP. Like say, oooh.. maybe the ACLU??

5) BYPASSING JUDICIAL OVERSIGHT. Section 103 would authorize the attorney general to bypass the courts altogether for Foreign Intelligence Survellence Act searches and wiretaps whenever congress has authorized the use of force. Section 128 would allow government to bypass grand juries for subpoenas in terrorism investigations. Section 126 allows government to bypass courts or grand juries in seeking access to credit reports.

6. DNA DATABASE FOR "SUSPECTED" TERRORISTS. Section 301-306 would authorize creation of a DNA database on "suspected terrorists". Expansively defined to include mere association with suspected terrorist groups, and noncitizens suspected of everyday crimes or of having supported any group designated as terrorists.

7. ELIMINATING PRIVACY PROTECTIONS FOR US CITIZENS!!!!!! Section 107 would eliminate protections in the current FISA law for US persons (citizens and lawful permanent residents). It would allow the government to get pen registers on US persons for ANY foriegn intelligence investigation, without regard to any criminal or terrorist nexus.

8. COLLAPSING DISTINCTION BETWEEN DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST INVESTIGATIONS. Section 121 eliminates the distinction between international and domestic terrorism. The reason for that distinction has been that domestic terrorism is a crime, and should be treated as a criminal matter, while international terrorism is both a crime and a matter of foreign intelligence. As a result, international terrorism investigations have used broader surveillance under looser restrictions than domestic investigations, which are subject to traditional restrictions that apply to all criminal investigations. This bill would eliminate that distinction, treating wholly domestic criminal acts and conspiracies as subject to the same authorities that extend to foriegn intelligence gathering.

9. ACCESS TO CREDIT REPORTS. Section 126 would give federal law enforcement authorities access to CREDIT REPORTS on the same basis as private companies. Historally, law enforcement access has been more limited, because of concerns that law enforcement is more susceptible to serious abuse than private companies. This provision would eliminate that distinction.

10. SECRECY. Section 128 and 206 impose gag orders on persons subjected to terrorism investigations. Section 204 would presumptively give the government to make secret presentations to courts in criminal cases related to the classified information procedures act. So basically, after they've raped your rights, stripped your citizenship, and violated your right to privacy, you can't talk about it.

11. New DEATH PENALTIES. Section 411 creates new death penalties for certain terrorist offences.

12. EXTRADITION WITHOUT TREATY. Section 322 authorizts extradition even where there is no treaty authorizing and setting criteria for extradition.

13. EXPEDITED REMOVAL FOR "CRIMINAL ALIENS". Section 504 has nothing to do with terrorism whatsoever. It creates an "expedited removal" process, radically limiting judicial review, for any foreign national convicted of a wide range of minor and major crimes, irrespective of when the crime was committed. This simply exacerbates the already harsh immigration laws governing those who have committed a crime, and seeks to deprive them of any meaningful judicial review, without any connection to terrorism or national security.


If this isn't implicit evidence that Bush's evil ass is trying to irrepirably damage the freedoms of this country and turn it into a POLICE STATE, I don't know what is.

[Sword 4 Hire]

Can we please change the name of this thread to "Bash the Bush Administration"

Thank you

[Preventer Wind]

I think he has every right to do that. And the fans have the right to walk out too. I wouldn't do it. I don't think it is cool.

As for Bush being stupid I think you should shut up. He has a bachelors degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard Business School. I wonder how many here could just get accepted to Yale not to mention graduate from there. If that makes a man stupid then I don't want to go to college.

So he doesn't speak that well, oh well. He is a successful business man and a lot of his ideas have worked. I wouldn't say he is the greatest president or any where close. But a lot of people voted for him over Al Gore (though not the majority). Which means a lot of people felt that either Gore was not good as vice president (The man claimed he invented the internet) or Bush was a better governor. Maybe they should have let Clinton run again? Or Hillary should have run...or Collin Powell.

I could say more for his advisors. They are all very smart. Most of the people against the war....let's just say their credentials are not as good. Not that some people's credentials that are pro war are better then con war people.

[BlackThornn]

Preventer, if you seriously think that his Yale and Harvard degrees are not based solely on social status I would say you're being pretty naieve. Him getting a 600 on his SAT's and having an IQ of 88 is not lies; it's fact.

And good businessman..? Did you read the list I put up of his blunders? His businesses ALL failed. They lost a combined total of 317 MILLION dollars, while he stashed away 15 million for himself.

At least Al Gore was smart enough to a) know what the internet was and b) quickly retract that statement despite it's basis in fact.

As for different candidates.. Despite conservative smearing I can be sure Clinton would have been elected again.. And Gore WAS democratically elected.. Colin Powell would have been a very good choice too.

[Kimahri]

Originally posted by Sword 4 Hire

Can we please change the name of this thread to "Bash the Bush Administration"

Thank you

I am starting to like you more, and more everyday!

[Uchiha Sasuke]

Originally posted by BlackThornn

Preventer, if you seriously think that his Yale and Harvard degrees are not based solely on social status I would say you're being pretty naieve. Him getting a 600 on his SAT's and having an IQ of 88 is not lies; it's fact.

And good businessman..? Did you read the list I put up of his blunders? His businesses ALL failed. They lost a combined total of 317 MILLION dollars, while he stashed away 15 million for himself.

At least Al Gore was smart enough to a) know what the internet was and b) quickly retract that statement despite it's basis in fact.

As for different candidates.. Despite conservative smearing I can be sure Clinton would have been elected again.. And Gore WAS democratically elected.. Colin Powell would have been a very good choice too.

Black you don't have to be a genious to run the country.You may not like Bush but he is doing a damn good job of running the country plus more than half the country are saying they should have in office for another term.Plus you can't tell me that the half of the country that says that is wrong.I bet there are a lot of people that can argue against what you say on every scale in defense of Bush and past history.

[Sword 4 Hire]

Thanks man

[BlackThornn]

Originally posted by SSSnake

Black you don't have to be a genious to run the country.You may not like Bush but he is doing a damn good job of running the country plus more than half the country are saying they should have in office for another term.Plus you can't tell me that the half of the country that says that is wrong.I bet there are a lot of people that can argue against what you say on every scale in defense of Bush and past history.

No, but having average to above average intelligence helps. It's the HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND, man. The most important job in the world. It shouldn't be held by a candidate for Upper Class Twit of the Year (Monty Python reference).

And sure, there are a lot of people who could "defend" against what I've said.. usually with half-truths, misunderstandings of what Bush has actually done, or outright lies when it comes to most of the ultra-conservatives I've grown accustomed to arguing with on the Bill Maher boards. I seriously don't think anyone could legitimately defend Bush's record and actions during his presidency, though I welcome any attempts..

BTW, his "support" right now is at 70 percent (30% lower than poppy bush's during Gulf War I), but less than 50% of the country, even now, would vote him in for a second term. Even the "polls" (sorry, but these things ain't the census. They don't accurately describe the feelings of this whole country, and pretty much anything you see on an american news channel nowadays is propaganda) show that.

SSSnake, S4H, have you read any analyses of the US PATRIOT Act? Or Patriot Act II? It's crazy the Orwellian shit that the administration is trying to get away with in the name of fighting terrorism. Seriously guys, if you don't trust my synopsis of that monster, find the draft of it floating around the internet and read it for yourselves, or look at somebody else's overview of it. Don't just blindly support policy 'because he's the president'..