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[Redpyramidhead]

Originally posted by ToxicUK

OK sop then if you think those are art then what about these examples???

1 - An ameoba - describe how that is art.

2 - When youre sick

3 - If something catches fire or explodes

4 - Dog food.

5 - An old stick thats in many bits in a white padded cell.

OK... I think I proved my point.

Sure, I would like to take a lovely little crack as to why these things are art.
First of all, the funny thing is, these are all the exact sort of things people have been depicting in art since the beginning of time!

1. An amoeba is a simple lifeform. It' s beauty lies in the fact that something so incredibly simple can be alive and EXIST and SURVIVE in such a huge cruel environment on it's own accord. It is a creation of billions of years of evolution where DNA slowly programmed it to adapt to the ever changing Earth which is a process in it's own right a work of art. It is just like an artist at his easle painstakingly designing a landscape that in his own mind works.

2. Sickness has been the object of art in paintings, drawings, poetry, music, etc. longer as long as human beings have suffered both physical illness and mental illness and the gift of self-awareness. In your posts you seem to have the pattern of thinking anything deemed as "negative" by the mainstream to not be true art. If that were the case, then everything that were considered art would then have to be aesthetically pleasing to everybody, despite their own pent up emotional issues inside that might cause any kind of instantaneous or stirred revulsion. IN fact, that in itself could be an art. If the artist were to be able to learn to play with the minds and emotions of his audience (which is the key to "pleasant" or "positive" artwork as well) than he has accomplished a truly incredible feat.
Sickness, sadness, torment, disease, pestilence, filth, squalor, agony, are all such basic aspects of the human condition and are in essence what make us the very human beings that we are because out gift is that we are NOT perfect and the beauty of it and our outlet is that we can express all of these things in artistic ways knowing that it will always work because it is an art in itself, being as much a part of the human soul, if not more, than happiness and healthiness.

3. You really can't see the artistic value in something catching fire or exploding? OK, maybe here is something you can understand right away. You play videogames, do you not? You watch movies with special effects I assume? These types of special effects cause emotional reactions in people based on the way they look, sound, and timing (a unique form of art special to the moving film and videogames.) In each case, a director or videogame developer (also cinemaphotogaphers, scriptwriters, etc.) decided when and how the explosion would happen, what they should look and sound like to gauge audience reactions. Does this sound at all familiar to you? as to how a painter might go about making a painting?
Don't even get me started on how artistic it is to see one of these natural wonders occur in nature!
4.Dog food, eh? I bet you thought you stumped us with that one didn't you?
First of all, look at the aesthetic appearance again. Everything from the commercial on the cover of the box to the food itself was arranged in colors and certain shapes to attract the dog owner to that particular brand. THe artists in commercial graphic design and such went through tons of research of what is pleasing for people to look at to make their dog food sell more than the others. These people went to an ART school for this!
Then there's the chemical artists who mix together the artificial flavors and aromas so your dog will eat it.
Don't even get me started on the process of said creature consuming said food then all the systems falling into place inside it's body which is a work or art in itself.
5.Hmmm...a stick in many bits in a white padded cell. Dude, I'm already having emotional reactions to this one. IN fact, it sounds as if you are describing a very painting itself. It would be the perfect subject for one. What's the story behind this stick? Why is it broken and in a white padded cell? I feel anger and loneliness and abandonment here. Maybe a man was confined to this cell because the world gave up on him, and the only comfort he had was this stick, but when it broke because it was the only thing he had to break to fight himself through the pain there was no reason left to exist. Or maybe, the stick itself represents the broken man. I could go on forever with this one. Man, you just told me a whole story and you didn't even know it! Could it be that somewhere, beneath all that doubt of what art really is that you, yourself, are an artist?

As I said before, the things you listed have been the subject of art for ages, not to mention when they already were even before people came along. People do not have to make art, although they are certainly interesting subjects of it.

Anyways, I jusyt hope that you learn to look at the world in a slightly different way. Gadzoox has already said most of it, and so has Fortune.

Don't forget the highest form of art around these forums, either! Videogames!


_RED_ stuff

[Berserker]

Several philosophers, including Immanuel Kant, pointed out that art is not a matter of taste, so what you're saying is basically untrue, because the fact of being "ugly", "badly placed" or whatever, doesn't imply that what you're talking about is not art.

The mere fact that you use words like ugly and beautiful in realation to the subject implies that you're talking about art...

I prefer cd's for the practical use, the only problem is that most good things aren't pressed on cd's. So I'm still forced to buy a lot of 7"s. Personally I think vinyl will outlive cd's just because of the fact that dj's can't deal without them and the cd as we know will be replaced in a few years by a new medium( It's a cd but so well advanced in terms of herz reach and stuff that you can't compare it with a regular cd)

[Pu the Owl]

Originally posted by beserker

The mere fact that you use words like ugly and beautiful in realation to the subject implies that you're talking about art...

You haven't read carefully, it seems... but the comment which leaves me blank is the one of Toxic UK. No problem, I'll try to explain it in clearer terms.

Of course, if you got what I was saying, the words "ugly" and "beautiful" are actually used for artistic purposes or can be used to describe an artwork, but they're in no way connected to the original idea of what art is. Are we talking about common sense? If so, I must add that many ther words are intended and/or used in the wrong way just because it's common sense to do it. Art is not something that is "beautiful". Art and beauty are not synonyms and an object that is "ugly" is not the opposite of an artistic product. This is because saying something is "beautiful" or "ugly" implies you're using taste to define/describe the object, and taste is too personal and not reliable enough to define art itself. The identity taste/art is definitely dead... Philosophers and artists of the last two centuries fought against this old principle of identity. If you still use this kind of theories to define art and artistic products, it means you're stuck to the XVIII century!
Artists have demonstrated that whatever you choose to be art can be it. Here goes again the bicycle wheel I was talking about in my previous post.... An amoeba, a bycicle wheel, a broken leg, dog food (Oh Andy Wharhol, where art thou?), being sick: what's the difference? (thanks Redpyramidhead for your long and interesting reply!)

If you don't want to read and you just want to analyze single words of my posts, do it. You'll always be missing the larger picture. Sorry, but you're using your "common sense" to talk about art: you cannot prove anything if you just use common sense and not an articulate theory.
BTW, I won't probably explain it in different terms, because this is not the right place for a lesson of Aesthetics

[Berserker]

You haven't read carefully, it seems...

I have...
English is not my first language( as you have probably noticed), it is sometimes difficult to find the right words...
I was trying to get a point across, but judging by your reaction I have hoplessly failed. I still don't know how to express exactly how I think about the subject...
I didn't mean to sound so black and white as I did in my post, but I don't know how to put it in correct english...

P.S. I will NEVER comment and quote someone without carefully reading the whole part, this doesn't mean I can't get you wrong however...

[Pu the Owl]

Originally posted by beserker
P.S. I will NEVER comment and quote someone without carefully reading the whole part, this doesn't mean I can't get you wrong however...

It's ok, don't worry. I took your quote on loan, because I thought you didn't get exactly what I was saying, but I was mainly replying to Toxic's post.

Again, back to topic, I must say Faile is right. Sometimes the sound of CDs lacks some "depth". You listen to the same album both on CD and vinyl and you actually hear differences. Cds are more "artificial": their sound is clean but also a bit "flat". Not that this relevant for all CDs (some albums are neither released on vinyl format). And of course nobody's saying vinyls are 100% good and CDs 100% bad.

[Faile]

hey vicious, do not be worried about offending me. its very hard to offend me over a question such as this.

i still love cd's anyway, vinyl is just a hobby.

[Rei]

I understand the love for vinyls, but I prefer cd format. As someone said, it's mainly for their qualities as being little, unbreakable etc.. I'm not a very romantic person, regarding these questions, probably

[ToxicUK]

OK so 1, 2 and 5 you proved your point but...

3. You really can't see the artistic value in something catching fire or exploding? OK, maybe here is something you can understand right away. You play videogames, do you not? You watch movies with special effects I assume? These types of special effects cause emotional reactions in people based on the way they look, sound, and timing (a unique form of art special to the moving film and videogames.) In each case, a director or videogame developer (also cinemaphotogaphers, scriptwriters, etc.) decided when and how the explosion would happen, what they should look and sound like to gauge audience reactions. Does this sound at all familiar to you? as to how a painter might go about making a painting?

When did the subject of something in real life exploding or catching fire turn to a videogame??? I was talking about the acual thing that cathces fire or explodes not peoples reactions.

4.Dog food, eh? I bet you thought you stumped us with that one didn't you?

Yea because what you said was aout the packaging and colours. I wasnt talking ABOUT the tin. I was talking about whats IN the tin.

5.Hmmm...a stick in many bits in a white padded cell. Dude, I'm already having emotional reactions to this one. IN fact, it sounds as if you are describing a very painting itself. It would be the perfect subject for one. What's the story behind this stick? Why is it broken and in a white padded cell? I feel anger and loneliness and abandonment here. Maybe a man was confined to this cell because the world gave up on him, and the only comfort he had was this stick, but when it broke because it was the only thing he had to break to fight himself through the pain there was no reason left to exist. Or maybe, the stick itself represents the broken man. I could go on forever with this one. Man, you just told me a whole story and you didn't even know it! Could it be that somewhere, beneath all that doubt of what art really is that you, yourself, are an artist?

You got that idea off a barclays advert didnt you.

^^The above posts are a reply to redpyramidheads posts alone.

[ToxicUK]

OK in reply to Gadzoox and Fortune's posts. Yes you are right in many ways. I wasnt saying things in the sense that you were replying and just some of the things that you said just didnt add up and were 'off topic' (not to this thread) to some of the things I was talking about. Maybe im not the type to stop when something goes a bit too far. I just like to get my views across and im sorry if i offended either of you in anyways. I was just talking fact and not straying across the path to slightly friction. and no I do not consider myself to have 'won' becasue that would be just stupid. I didnt even believe that such a simple view could turn into such an argument. So if we could just forget the whole argument thing and move on. Sorry...

Anyways back to the thread topic... The reason i think CDS are better mainly is cost they store more music, the sound is much better and they arer much easier to be portable.

[Gadzoox]

What are you trying to do?!?!

Your arguements and 'supportive' points are SO weak!!! Open your eyes and READ what we are typing!!!! My goodness!

I want you to go and carefully re-read what Red wrote! He covers EVERYTHING you are asking about if you only would read it and pay attention! If you want me to, I can go through and pick out the exact words you are asking for!

But then again, I don't care, right?

AND you did know there is an 'edit' your post button on these forums right? So if you wanted to add something to your previous reply, you can without writing a whole new post! Just to let you know.

But yes, we will drop it, as long as you do. The thing that was giving offense to me was that you didnt seem to be listening to us and accepting our views as they were.

[ssjtrunks13]

Wow, so much controversy. I actually thought about mentioning that without those things we wouldn't have the DJs do the cool sounding scratching.(I'm not sure if that came out right)

[Vicious_2003]

Is not art objective ?. I mean what one man sees as just a lousy peice of trash another might see as a work of art. Its all in the eye of the beholder so to try and prove that something is art isnt really possible is it ?. I mean It all depends on the person . I personally have gotten cought up in the artistic aspects of many things that most wouldnt consider art

[ToxicUK]

I thought we dropped that about 4 posts ago Vicious.

[Gadzoox]

Your right too Vicious. It does all depend on the person, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone is entitled to state their opinion without getting penalized about it.

Anyway, I dont want people to start getting all huffy again...

Trunks, yeah good point! I dont know if anyone is saying that they wish records were never made though... because then they wouldnt have evolved into CDs!

What do you guys think about MiniDiscs then too?

[ToxicUK]

Well if I knew minidisc would come into it then i would have voted Minidisc because they are even more portable, hold more songs and dont even skip...

[mark0™]

I have a minidisk player, and a Mini Disk Hi Fi (So I could copy CD's onto my minidisks) But I really forgot all about it, and I think most others dont care much for minidisks now either. I aint seen a minidisk album for sale in a shop for years now. As for Vinyl, I cant say as I aint listened to one in ages, but they were cool though. If I had the choice of listening to a CD or a Vinyl, Id go for the Vinyl, they do sound better.

And Art, I dont know how to define it, but I agree with Gadzoox, Fortune and Red, and ToxicUK, not trying to flame you or anything but I wouldnt try lecturing someone on Art who is a very artistic person as Red, Fortune and Gadzoox are. I know you've came to terms with it now but I was just adding my say.

[Redpyramidhead]

Heated debate...I must admit I enjoy it, but I think this particular one has come to an end. There will always be certain people who view the world very differently. For those who do not see art everywhere they go, just realize that there are those who do and it makes us all that much more passionate about seemingly "bland" things to others. Perhaps, I'm off in my own little world, too much in this way, but I wouldnt rather look at the world any other way

SO, no offense to ya I hope Toxic. Can we all be cool now?

About cd's versus vinyl. I've never owned many records. I used to borrow my brother's Zeppelin records which I've had the cd's of for ages now. The reason I don't borrow the records anymore is because the player at my place is crappy. My bro's at his apartment is amazing!
I've thought about buying more vinyls before, but I always figured if I'm gonna do that I'd better buy the cd first, cuz I'm gonna want to be able to have it wherever I go and listen to it whenever I want to. After that's out of the way if the cd is worth also owning the vinyl for I will go for it. I do agree there is a difference in sound quality, but also depending on how well a job was done mixing the music (which I have some experience in and have a good ear for myself) I make my decision. I have a few necassary albums on vinyl like Alice In Chains' Dirt and Soundgarden's Superunknown and Badmotorfinger. I would die of happiness if I could find Emperor albums on vinyl.

_RED_ stuff

[Berserker]

I would die of happiness if I could find Emperor albums on vinyl.

Try ordering directly from the recordlabel over the internet, cause in europe there are heaps and heaps of black metal pressed on vinyl.

P.S. talking of black metal vinyl...I got Celtic Frosts "To mega therion" on vinyl with a fold-out cover made by H.R.Gigger!!! That one can't be beat by the cd-version

[ssjtrunks13]

Until I see minidisk players costing about the same as a GBA does now I don't think much of them.

[Vicious_2003]

I thought we dropped that about 4 posts ago Vicious

Oh....I guess you did . Then agian what anyone else has to say doesent neccesarily govern what I have to say . But yes I did miss a couple posts....I get lazy sometimes..Ill try not to any more